understanding the english

Here's a game I just played on ICC though it might show some typical ideas, such as the important d5 square, and typical Pawn breaks. This KID set-up against the English is really popular, at least at my level.

[Event "ICC 15' 15""]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.01.19"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rotella, Tony"]
[Black "NN"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2178"]
[BlackElo "2149"]
[PlyCount "111"]

1. c4 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. Nc3 d6 5. d3 O-O 6. Bg5!? Nbd7 7. Qd2 c6 8. e4 e5 9. Nge2 Nc5 10. O-O Ne6 11. Bh6 Ng4?! 12. Bxg7 Kxg7 13. h3 Nh6 14. d4! exd4 15. Nxd4 Qe7 16. Rad1 Rd8 17. f4 f6?! 18. f5! Nxd4 19. Qxd4 gxf5 20. exf5 Bxf5? 21. Rxf5! Nxf5 22. Qg4+ Kh8 23. Qxf5 Rg8 24. Kh2 Rg5 25. Qf4 Qe5 26. Rf1 Qxf4 27. Rxf4 f5 28. h4 Rg6 29. Rxf5 Kg7 30. Ne4 Rf8 31. Rxf8 Kxf8 32. c5 d5 33. Nd6 b6 34. b4 a5 35. Bh3!? axb4? 36. cxb6! Rxd6 37. b7 Rd8 38. Bc8! d4 39. b8=Q d3 40. Qf4+ Ke8 41. Qe5+ Kf8 42. Qf6+ Ke8 43. Qxc6+ Kf8 44. Qf6+ Ke8 45. Ba6 d2 46. Bb5+ Rd7 47. Qe6+ Kf8 48. Qxd7 d1=Q 49. Qxd1 b3 50. Qxb3 Kg7 51. Qe6 h5 52. Bc4 Kh7 53. Qf7+ Kh6 54. Qf6+ Kh7 55. Qg5 Kh8 56. Qg8# 1-0

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Here's a game I just played on ICC though it might show some typical ideas, such as the important d5 square, and typical Pawn breaks. This KID set-up against the English is really popular, at least at my level.

[Event "ICC 15' 15""]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.01.19"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rotella, Tony"]
[Black "NN"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2178"]
[ 51. Qe6 h5 52. Bc4 Kh7 53. Qf7+ Kh6 54. Qf6+ Kh7 55. Qg5 Kh8 56. Qg8# 1-0

I don't know if I can ever talk to you again. You must be very confused. 😛

Because you played the English. 🙁

In OTB tournament play. I have 1 loss with the English, and I was 100% winning and blundered near the time control. When I'm in the right mood, I play the English like a freak of nature. But other times.....I have revisited it after a long absence, and I find it much easier to play now that I am a little stronger. 😀

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
In OTB tournament play. I have 1 loss with the English, and I was 100% winning and blundered near the time control. When I'm in the right mood, I play the English like a freak of nature. But other times.....I have revisited it after a long absence, and I find it much easier to play now that I am a little stronger. 😀

It's just so....slow. 🙁

That's a misconception I think. Some lines are a little slow, but I was very happy to play that position as White. After I got d4 in, I just had an edge that lasted the whole game, and it wasn't even to find decent moves for Black. Not to mention when you play 1. c4 people are normally just boggled. , and normally they just play some horsecrap that isn't good at all. Look at some Tony Kosten games, and his record with the English. It's not slow! 😀

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
That's a misconception I think. Some lines are a little slow, but I was very happy to play that position as White. After I got d4 in, I just had an edge that lasted the whole game, and it wasn't even to find decent moves for Black. Not to mention when you play 1. c4 people are normally just boggled. , and normally they just play some horsecrap that isn't go ...[text shortened]... d at all. Look at some Tony Kosten games, and his record with the English. It's not slow! 😀

I'll bet you it's slower than the Dragon and the KG. 😛

Speaking of the Dragon I played the most insane game with it earlier, I won a queen about 15 moves in, and nearly lost it the game. 😕

I'll look at a couple of Kosten's games. And, as a confession...although I'm ashamed, I did once use the English opening. 😞 But a KG player convinced me to switch!! 😛

Anyhow....

Game 2105821

🙁

Originally posted by cmsMaster
I'll bet you it's slower than the Dragon and the KG. 😛

Speaking of the Dragon I played the most insane game with it earlier, I won a queen about 15 moves in, and nearly lost it the game. 😕

I'll look at a couple of Kosten's games. And, as a confession...although I'm ashamed, I did once use the English opening. 😞 But a KG player convinced me to switch!! 😛

Anyhow....

Game 2105821

🙁

Everything is slower than the Dragon and KG. 😀 Here's an awesome Kosten game in the English:

Kosten-Mischustov
Bundesliga 1998/9

1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bxd2+ 6. Qxd2 d6 7. Nc3 0-0 8. e3 Qe7 9. Nge2 Na6 10. h3 Rb8 11. g4 b5 12. cxb5 cxb5 13. Ng3 b4 14. Nce2 g6 15. 0-0 Bb7 16. e4 Kh8 17. f4 Ng8 18. f5 f6 19. a3! exd4 20. fxg6 hxg6 21. axb4 d5 22. Nf4 Kh7 23. exd5 Nxb4 24. Rae1 Qd6 25. Re6 Qc5 26. Ne4 Qc2 27. Nxg6 Kxg6 28. Qg5+ Kh7 29. Rfxf6 Rxf6 30. Re7+ Nxe7 31. Nxf6+ Kh8 32. Qh6+ 1-0

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Everything is slower than the Dragon and KG. 😀 Here's an awesome Kosten game in the English:

Kosten-Mischustov
Bundesliga 1998/9

1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bxd2+ 6. Qxd2 d6 7. Nc3 0-0 8. e3 Qe7 9. Nge2 Na6 10. h3 Rb8 11. g4 b5 12. cxb5 axb5 13. Ng3 b4 14. Nce2 g6 15. 0-0 Bb7 16. e4 Kh8 17. f4 Ng8 18. f5 f6 19. a3! exd4 20. fxg6 h ...[text shortened]... 26. Ne4 Qc2 27. Nxg6 Qxg6 28. Qg5+ Kh7 29. Rfxf6 Rxf6 30. Re7+ Nxe7 31. Nxf6+ Kh8 32. Qh6+ 1-0

Why doesn't Kosten play bxa6...at a lot of points?

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Why doesn't Kosten play bxa6...at a lot of points?

Woah...well, I had Fritz analyze it to see if it could help me...and well...

[Event "Blitz:10'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "Johnson, Mike"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Fritz 9 (2s)"]
[PlyCount "40"]

{A20: English Opening: 1...e5} 1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 Bb4+ 5. Bd2
Bxd2+ 6. Qxd2 d6 7. Nc3 O-O 8. e3 Qe7 9. Nge2 Na6 10. h3 {last book move} Rb8
11. g4 b5 12. cxb5 g6 $4 {throwing away the advantage} (12... cxb5 $142 $5 {
and Black hangs on} 13. g5 Nd7 $11) 13. O-O (13. bxa6 {
and White can already relax} d5 $18) 13... Bb7 $4 {
leads to further unpleasantness} (13... cxb5 14. g5 Nh5 15. f4 $16) 14. e4 (14.
bxa6 $5 {makes it even easier for White} Bxa6 15. Bxc6 h5 $18) 14... Kh8 $4 {
solves nothing} (14... cxb5 $5 15. g5 Nh5 $16) 15. f4 (15. bxa6 {
might be the shorter path} Bxa6 16. f4 Nd7 $18) 15... Ng8 $4 {
sad, but how else could Black save the game?} (15... cxb5 16. fxe5 dxe5 17. Qg5
$18) 16. f5 (16. bxa6 $5 {seems even better} Bxa6 17. Rad1 f6 $18) 16... f6 $4
{strolling merrily down the path to disaster} (16... cxb5 17. Nxb5 gxf5 18.
Rxf5 $16) 17. a3 (17. bxa6 $142 {makes it even easier for White} Bxa6 18. Rab1
$18) 17... exd4 (17... cxb5 $142 18. Qe3 Nc7 $16) 18. fxg6 $4 {
Sacrifices material. hands over the advantage to the opponent} (18. Nxd4 cxb5
19. Ne6 Rfc8 $18) 18... hxg6 $4 {releasing the pressure on the opponent} (18...
dxc3 $5 {looks like a viable alternative} 19. Nxc3 hxg6 20. bxa6 Bxa6 $15) 19.
Nf4 $4 {White threatens to win material: Nf4xg6. there were better ways to
keep up the pressure} (19. Qxd4 cxb5 20. Nf4 Kh7 $18) 19... Kh7 $2 (19... dxc3
$142 {would keep Black alive} 20. Nxg6+ Kg7 21. Nxe7 cxd2 22. Nf5+ Kf7 23. bxa6
Bxa6 $16) 20. Rae1 $4 {instead of simply winning the game} (20. Qxd4 cxb5 21.
Rad1 $18 (21. Nxb5 $143 Qe5 22. Qxe5 dxe5 $16 (22... fxe5 $4 23. Ne6 Rf6 24.
Rxf6 Nxf6 25. Nxd6 $18)) (21. Qxa7 $6 {is clearly inferior} b4 22. axb4 Nxb4
$18)) 20... Kh8 (20... Kh8 21. Nxg6+ Kh7 22. Nxe7 Nxe7 23. bxa6 Bxa6 24. Qxd4
Bxf1 25. Rxf1 Rxb2 26. Qxd6 Ng6 $18) *


Fritz didn't figure it out either. 😕

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Woah...well, I had Fritz analyze it to see if it could help me...and well...

[Event "Blitz:10'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "Johnson, Mike"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Fritz 9 (2s)"]
[PlyCount "40"]

{A20: English Opening: 1...e5} 1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 Bb4+ 5. Bd2
Bxd2+ 6. Qxd2 d6 7. Nc3 O- ...[text shortened]... 25. Rxf1 Rxb2 26. Qxd6 Ng6 $18) *


Fritz didn't figure it out either. 😕

My pgn was really effed up. Try to look at the game now. It will make a lot more sense. 😀 Sorry.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
I'll bet you it's slower than the Dragon and the KG. 😛

Speaking of the Dragon I played the most insane game with it earlier, I won a queen about 15 moves in, and nearly lost it the game. 😕

I'll look at a couple of Kosten's games. And, as a confession...although I'm ashamed, I did once use the English opening. 😞 But a KG player convinced me to switch!! 😛

Anyhow....

Game 2105821

🙁

Seems like you messed that game up! Your move Bxc8?! Was a weak one, as it trades your good bishop for blacks bad one, than I cant believe you missed the invasion of the 7th rank, those are a couple of very fundamental strategical concepts I think you should stick to tactics! 😛

Originally posted by HomerJSimpson
Seems like you messed that game up! Your move Bxc8?! Was a weak one, as it trades your good bishop for blacks bad one, than I cant believe you missed the invasion of the 7th rank, those are a couple of very fundamental strategical concepts I think you should stick to tactics! 😛

Well, that was played in May...

And Bxc8 looks ok there, although I probably should have gotten more creative. That was one of (maybe it still is!) the holes in my game.

Yeah this game looks like it was played when Cms was maybe less strong. Some of the moves in that game don't really make sense to me, but maybe that's because I have a decent amount of experience in these positions. For instance he plays Rb1, and then plays a3, when it's not really necessary. Also, the Dutch is actually worse against the English than 1. d4 since White hasn't committed himself to d4 and can instead play d3 and e4, a break that is great when you can get it in against the Dutch. Also, e3 might be overcommital, since maybe the Bishop needs to leave that pawn chain if you decide to not stick it on b2. And in the endgame, maybe f5 isn't best. Not playing it retains the option of Kf5, or e4-e5. Who knows. English positions are actually kind of complicated from both sides, which is why I like them.

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Yeah this game looks like it was played when Cms was maybe less strong. Some of the moves in that game don't really make sense to me, but maybe that's because I have a decent amount of experience in these positions. For instance he plays Rb1, and then plays a3, when it's not really necessary. Also, the Dutch is actually worse against the English than 1. d4 ...[text shortened]... glish positions are actually kind of complicated from both sides, which is why I like them.

As it turns out, Fritz says the game is won for white in the positions from which we greed to the draw, but it was way over my head back then. I think I was rated maybe about 1400 and challenged Sun Tzu to see how I would fair against a higher rated player.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
As it turns out, Fritz says the game is won for white in the positions from which we greed to the draw, but it was way over my head back then. I think I was rated maybe about 1400 and challenged Sun Tzu to see how I would fair against a higher rated player.

I can never tell if those endings are drawn, so I almost always just keep playing. Silman better frickin speed it up.