Was I right to draw here?

I made some mistakes and had a bad position, so I'm content with the end result. But could I have somehow forced a pawn promotion? I couldn't find a way unless he moved his knight to a bad spot. So I offered a draw and he accepted.

[Event "Open invite"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2010.07.24"]
[EndDate "2010.08.06"]
[Round "?"]
[White "USArmyParatrooper"]
[Black "myhugearm"]
[WhiteRating "1542"]
[BlackRating "1482"]
[WhiteELO "1542"]
[BlackELO "1482"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "7623860"]

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
I made some mistakes and had a bad position, so I'm content with the end result. But could I have somehow forced a pawn promotion? I couldn't find a way unless he moved his knight to a bad spot. So I offered a draw and he accepted.

[Event "Open invite"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2010.07.24"]
[EndDate "2010.08.06"]
[Round "?" ...[text shortened]... . g4 Nf7d6 39. Ke4d5 Nd6f7
40. Kd5e4 Nf7d6 41. Ke4d5 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

I'm going to go out on a limb with a "first blush" impression based on having similar positions.

I suspect it should be a draw with best play, but black will have to play accurately, and white could push a little to see if black makes a mistake (and recognizing the mistake may not be easy).

As a rule of thumb for me, as white I would draw if playing up, and push a little if playing down. Or if my game load is too high, I might just take the draw to save the time and energy.

Paul

Interesting position.I would play on to see what happens and analyse it thoroughly later.

Whatever the result it'll be a good lesson for the future.

toet.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
I made some mistakes and had a bad position, so I'm content with the end result. But could I have somehow forced a pawn promotion? I couldn't find a way unless he moved his knight to a bad spot. So I offered a draw and he accepted.

[Event "Open invite"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2010.07.24"]
[EndDate "2010.08.06"]
[Round "?" ...[text shortened]... . g4 Nf7d6 39. Ke4d5 Nd6f7
40. Kd5e4 Nf7d6 41. Ke4d5 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

I didn't thoroughly explore it, and am prone to oversights, but I assume you did explore after his likely Nd6f7 (which he had previously done as you both were heading toward a draw by repetition) the idea of running over to pick off his a and b pawns and advancing your a pawn. Too many N moves on his part and it looks pretty good for you. He gets one pointless check before you get there. There is a route by which he advances and gives you his his e pawn, to make a path for his K to get your c pawn, and advance his c pawn. Possibly you would both queen, which looks bad for you. Now that the game is over maybe a 2000+ player or a machine could help.

It's basically 3 connected pawns against a knight, which should be winning for white anytime. Probably not quite that simple, though. It may be difficult for white to support the pawn advance, but then again, if black concentrates too much on the pawns on the kingside white might be able to grab the queenside pawns. hmm, I would have played on, not much risk in it for white anyway

...Interesting,but you did the right thing to take the draw...to push the king to far into no-mans land would leave you lost...41...Nb7 42.Kc6 Na5! now the king must head back otherwise 43.Kc7 Nxc4 wins!....41...Nf7 again 42.Ke4...if 42.Kc6 Nd8+( or maybe 42...e4!?) again king must go back or 43.Kc7 Nf7 44.Kb7 Nd6+! 45.Kxa7 Nxc4 46.Ka6 Nb2 wins...whites 3king side pawns look good but dont really do much without the king ie (g5+ Kxf5) h5 Kg5 and the pawns are going nowhere black then re-routes his horse...Hope this has been of some help.

I'm not very good at endgames, but with White I would go straight for the a7 pawn with the king and I think it would win, black can't defend both sides properly. I'd learn something if someone would prove me wrong though.

After some analysis with the box, Black has the resource of taking Nxc4 and White can't recapture because black pawn is on a breakaway. Thx for posting the game!

Originally posted by Maxacre42
I'm not very good at endgames, but with White I would go straight for the a7 pawn with the king and I think it would win, black can't defend both sides properly. I'd learn something if someone would prove me wrong though. For the moment, I think this is forced win for white 100%.

Black can maneuver his knight to a5, and then take c4. If white recaptures while his king has penetrated on the queenside, the black e-pawn races to promotion.

That process, if uninterrupted, takes 7 moves- Nb7, Na5, Nxc4, e5-e6-e7-e8. If white can't string a series of moves together that promote faster, he is lost.

I should add that if white does not recapture on c4, the knight is still free to wreak havoc and take the a-pawn in turn.

There are lots of move permutations, but I think that is the gist of the position if white advances too far forward.

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
Black can maneuver his knight to a5, and then take c4. If white recaptures while his king has penetrated on the queenside, the black e-pawn races to promotion.

That process, if uninterrupted, takes 7 moves- Nb7, Na5, Nxc4, e5-e6-e7-e8. If white can't string a series of moves together that promote faster, he is lost.

I should add that if white do ...[text shortened]... e permutations, but I think that is the gist of the position if white advances too far forward.

hehe yes thanks! it shows that you have more experience. I posted my edit saying the same thing a few seconds ago.

Originally posted by Maxacre42
hehe yes thanks! it shows that you have more experience. I posted my edit saying the same thing a few seconds ago.

PAWN RIOT outlines the beginning of the plan in an earlier post. Any time a king is outside the "box" of an opposing passed pawn, the fit hits the shan!

Edit: Looking back I think in the first game 13.dxc5 was a mistake. Agree?

Thanks for the input, guys. I was tempted to start going after his vulnerable queenside pawns, but it looked to me like his king & knight would rabidly gobble my kingside pawns. I wish my chess vision was a bit further to see if my own queenside pawns would pay dividends.

I'm in the middle of a rematch with the same player

http://www.redhotpawn.com/core/playchess.php?gameid=7656982&cbqsid=13507

I just sac'd the exchange of my knight for two pawns.

Game in progress, no comments please until it ends.

It's a draw by repitition. If 40.- Nd6+ 41.Kd5 Nf7 42.Kc6 e4! 43.dxe4 Ne5+ 44.Kb7 Nxc4 and black seems to be winning for example 45.g5+ Kf7 and black is quicker with his c-pawn than white is with his pawns on the kingside. 🙂

NO you were not right. IF you were rated 2200+, then you may as well take the DRAW because Mr. FRITZ says that with "perfect" play, it is a draw 100% of the time.

However, what we have are a couple of 1500ish players. PLAYERS who make mistakes all the time. I'm certain-- 100%-- certain that there would have been a WINNER if play continued. To say you both would HAVE played to a draw shows overconfidence to the POINT of arrogance from a couple of 1500ish players, don't you think?

Don't denigrate the GAME by throwing in the towel when a complex endgame presents itself. You two just cheated yourselves OUT OF a valuable chess endgame lesson. Shame, really.

Originally posted by teacher1
NO you were not right. IF you were rated 2200+, then you may as well take the DRAW because Mr. FRITZ says that with "perfect" play, it is a draw 100% of the time.

However, what we have are a couple of 1500ish players. PLAYERS who make mistakes all the time. I'm certain-- 100%-- certain that there would have been a WINNER if play continued. To say you bot ...[text shortened]... elf. You two just cheated yourselves OUT OF a valuable chess endgame lesson. Shame, really.

Why are you shouting intermittently?

Originally posted by teacher1
NO you were not right. IF you were rated 2200+, then you may as well take the DRAW because Mr. FRITZ says that with "perfect" play, it is a draw 100% of the time.

However, what we have are a couple of 1500ish players. PLAYERS who make mistakes all the time. I'm certain-- 100%-- certain that there would have been a WINNER if play continued. To say you bot ...[text shortened]... elf. You two just cheated yourselves OUT OF a valuable chess endgame lesson. Shame, really.

Actually, I calculated that if either of us deviated from our back and forth between my king and his knight it would be losing. Just as joseffire opined above, "draw by repetition"

I posted the game on this board so that stronger players could tell me if I was correct.

But I do appreciate you calling me arrogant. It's always good when someone personalizes a thread by insulting a player who's only trying to learn.