In Game 574767 black’s move 22 is to take white’s KRP and give check. White’s response was to take the “sacrifice” of a bishop using his rook, and the next move is a queen move by black, which is also the last move of the game because it is checkmate. Viewed in that way, black’s 22nd would best be called part of a mating combination, I suppose. But what if white took the bishop with his king? Black could then send his queen to h4 to give check, but after white moves his king to g1, what more can black do to make the bishop sacrifice look justified?
Originally posted by Paul DiracIn reality, it wasn't a bishop "sacrifice" - it was a mate threat that white could only avoid by allowing an unfavourable trade. If white took the bishop with the king, black surely wouldn't give check at h4, but instead take the rook - Qxf1, and come out of the sequence with a rook and a pawn for a bishop.
In Game 574767 black’s move 22 is to take white’s KRP and give check. White’s response was to take the “sacrifice” of a bishop using his rook, and the next move is a queen move by black, which is also the last move of the game beca ...[text shortened]... hat more can black do to make the bishop sacrifice look justified?
[edit: Do'oh! Don't know why I didn't read your own reply before writing this... I guess you noticed it on your own. 🙂]
-Jarno
Of course, if white wants to play it as a sacrifice, it appears to still be perfectly good... 23 Kxg2 Qh4+ 24. Kg2 Rxf1+ 25. Kxf1 Qh1+ and then white has 3 choices, all of which result in the loss of the rook anyway, but with more advantageously simplifying exchanges for black in the process:
(1) Rg1 Rf8+ and the rook falls. But also forced a trade of the other rook = less counterplay for white.
(2) Ke2 and the rook falls on the spot with Qxg2+, plus black also gets to force a queen trade which is highly advantageous in this position for similar suppressing counterplay reasons.
(3) Kf2 Rf8+ and
(3)(a) Ke3 Qh3+ and we're back to the position in (2)
(3)(b) Kg3 -- the toughest one for black, but I'd feel fine in it and play g5 with the threat of Qh4#, forcing Rh2, then Qxe4, once again threatening mate, this time on f3, forcing Nd2. Then Qf4+ Kg2 Qf2+ Kh1 Qe1+ Kg2 Rf2+ Kh3 (if Kg3, Rxd1+ wins knight and queen) Qe3+ Kg4 and the rook FINALLY falls, to be shortly thereafter followed by the knight and/or mate.
So the sacrifice, even assuming it was a sacrifice, was still sound :-) Anyone have any upgrades to my (3)(b) analysis? (Hopefully I didn't mis-enter any of the moves, or hang black's queen anywhere in there.)
(Must... justify... all... sacrifices!)
-High Priest
I'm proud of this game,I wanted to ask you if the bishop sac on move 39 was worth of it or could I have done in some other way?Game 570418
Another thing:this was a game where i was trying the sicilian(one of the many variations) for the 2nd or 3rd time,did I played it correctly or there were mistakes(of course)?every comment will be much appreciated.
Originally posted by RavelloHow was that game a sicilian? I didn't see a c5 in there...
I'm proud of this game,I wanted to ask you if the bishop sac on move 39 was worth of it or could I have done in some other way?Game 570418
Another thing:this was a game where i was trying the sicilian(one of the many variations) for ...[text shortened]... were mistakes(of course)?every comment will be much appreciated.5
I truly don't understand what posessed him to play 23. ... a5. Hey, free file for a rook, very generous. To say nothing of the hanging of the piece...
Regardless, the trap with that e pawn made your "sac" kind of forced. You were forked anyway. I like the use you made of it, although I'm sufficiently twisted, personally, that I might just upgrade the loss to a rook 39. Rxe5 fxe5 40. Bxe5+ and either Rxe5, in which case you're back to the line you had (although that c5 push blunder was pretty lucky), or the much scarier 40. ... Kg8 41. Bh8 and you have a continuous mate threat which may keep his queen tied down for a while.
But that's twisted, and is probably grotesquely unsound, so feel free to laugh at it. Just the messed up way my mind "works."
Better would have been to avoid the problem in the first place by 35. Re4. Then you've got a massive amount of pressure on that weak pawn of his, maybe blockade a couple of others with the N on d3 and the B on c5 (preventing him from supporting the d pawn, which is victim #2 on the list, plus guarding your a pawn), attack that e pawn with f4... all that creepy nimzowitch stuff, which you can afford to muck around with because you've got an extra piece for a pawn.
Many thanks to Pyrrho and Paultopia for the analysis of the game I linked to. I would be interested to know if thesonofsaul (black) made the bishop-takes-pawn move with the strict intention of winning material, and then after white chose to use his rook to capture, thesonofsaul took the mate-in-one as a delightful but unintended gift? Maybe he will see this thread and comment on that. At any rate, it was a neat 22nd move for him to make, and one that I surely would not have seen, had I been him or his opponent.
Note to Paultopia: I ran through your thorough analysis, and I didn't see any instances of black hanging a queen, so I think those were his ways to a fairly quick victory. The only typo I saw was when you said, "23 Kxg2" you meant 23 Kxh2.
Originally posted by dylAaah, yes. See, I knew there was some hole in my analysis 🙂
What about Rf2 instead of Rh2? After Qh4+ 2.Kg2 Qxe4+ the game still looks unhealthy for White, but it's still better than losing the rook. 😉
Rf2 Qh4+ Kg2 Qxe4+ Kh2 Qh4+ Kg2 Rf4 turns it into a real sac. Presumably white, if he wishes to survive, will play Rxf4 exf4 (if he fails to take on f4, that rook and that queen will probably eventually either win the rook or mate). But I'm out of forcing moves, so white may wriggle out of it. White has three connected passed pawns for the piece, however, with his queen in close proximity allowing both defense of the pawns and additional threats on the king which is far too close for comfort. I think those pawns will march and there'll be a new queen fairly shortly.