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What's a Positional Sacrifice?

Standard memberDuchess64
Only Chess 03 Oct '12 22:05
  1. D
    Standard memberDuchess64
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    08 Oct '12 00:281 edit

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  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Oct '12 00:59
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    I bet you are being facetious now. Great idea. 😀
  3. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    08 Oct '12 01:381 edit
    Quality Chess know all about me and my views and opinions.
    They published Rampant Chess and I would not let them near
    it with their editors pencil. What a fight that was.

    Jacob Aagaard and John Shaw salughted my views on endgames
    in the Dresden 2008 Olympiad book. (a really good book which a free copy
    was given to every competitor, I was sent one because I did a round by
    report on the Corner.)
    Practically everytime an ending pops up my name name appears. 🙁

    Usual rant:
    Behind every succesful man their is a woman.
    Behind every endgame there is a misplayed Middle Game.

    Every now and then bend Jacob's or John's ear about transalting
    Tarrasch Die Moderne Schachpartie it's a sin that this book has not
    been given to the English speaking world.

    Q.Books did an excellent job on My System, they would do a great job
    on Die Moderne Schachpartie as well.

    I have a German copy and have actually got some things from it but
    I'd love to see it in English.

    The best book in English on Tarrasch's Complete Games is still by Fred Reinfeld.
    That is an absolute disgrace. Fred's book is good. (I'd say his best.)

    I went through most of Suba's book Dynamic Chess Strategy
    That rocks the boat a wee bit. Like what I read.

    If see a copy of 'Exchanges Sacrifices Tarted Up to be Something they Aint'
    in a second hand shop I'll get it and over write the bits I don't agree with.
    The title will have 'No Such Thing' stamped on it for a start. 🙂
  4. rc
    Standard memberrobbie carrobie
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    08 Oct '12 08:12
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Jacob Aaggard lives five minutes from me, remind me to saddle my horse and ride
    around to his house with a set of pistols, some French foils and a glove with which to
    smack him around the face😛
  5. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    08 Oct '12 11:09
    OOPS - 'salughted' just noticed that.

    Looks like a tired attempt to spell saluted.

    No it was slaughtered. (I don't mind - everyone is entitled to a wrong opinion.)

    My eyes are going wonky.
    Just got reading glasses so I can clearly read a chess book but I find the
    back rank of the board not as clear and sharp as I like it so I have to take them
    off to look at the board, put them back on to read the book.

    Have to put the font up by 125% these days to read it.
    Knock it back to 100% to look at a screen diagram....that's a pain.

    It's good fun growing old, first your hair falls out, then your teeth and you go blind.
    At least the hearing is OK, I can still listen to The Beatles.
  6. A
    Standard memberAldan
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    08 Oct '12 20:50
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Please be good enough to review my most recent game against Steffko (9515356) and let me know whether you thank I made a "positional sacrifice". I'm not even sure that I made the best moves after my piece sacrifice but I did succeed in winning.

    Aldan
  7. D
    Standard memberDuchess64
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    09 Oct '12 19:19

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  8. A
    Standard memberAldan
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    09 Oct '12 21:56
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Dear Duchess: Thanks for expending the time and effort in reviewing my game. Actually, I was uncertain as to whether I could recover the piece but I thought that I was so far ahead in development that it was worth the risk. I thought that Steffko's move a3 was inexplicable and a unexpected windfall and thought I should be able to win by force thereafter. Aldan
  9. SubscriberPaul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
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    10 Oct '12 01:12
    Originally posted by Aldan
    Please be good enough to review my most recent game against Steffko (9515356) and let me know whether you thank I made a "positional sacrifice". I'm not even sure that I made the best moves after my piece sacrifice but I did succeed in winning.

    Aldan
    Invert BoardPGNHeaders
  10. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    10 Oct '12 02:33
    Hi Aldan.

    Which piece sacrifice are asking about mate, I saw two.

    Mind you are after reading:

    "Making a sacrifice implies there was a choice of avoiding it, so unless Black
    foresaw this and intended to give up his knight on e5, it was not a sacrifice.     "

    Perhaps I never saw any sacrifices at all.

    If you sacrifice a piece with a move you intended to make, it's not a sacrifice. 😕

    So apparently, if you never intended to sacrifice a piece and lost it,
    this used to be called a blunder, then and only then can it be called a sacrifice.

    So....

    GP - nobush RHP 2009 Game 6736637

    When I deliberatly sacced my Bishop here....


    .....with 12.Bxh7+ trying to scrounge a perpetual (which I eventually achieved) 🙂

    It was not a sacrifice because I intended to sacrifice my Bishop.

    It can't be a blunder, I never overlooked the King could take Bishop.
    It's not a sacrifice.....

    It must be a positional non-sacrifice.
    ('Positional' is the new buzz word. It's now selling more books on the cover than
    than the word 'Opening' used to.)

    If you sacrifice a piece with a move you intended to make, it's not a sacrifice.

    We are all going to have to get this Suba book. This is ground breaking stuff.

    😉

    (OK it was a typo.....a positional typo.) 🙂

    The mysterious 25.a3


    It was a planned bolt hole.
    White missed the Re3 & Rd6 idea.

    Possible thoughts:
    The Rook on f6 stops the Rxh6+ trick so that is not moving. (in his mind).
    So he has Black threatening Rd8, he played 25.a3 intending to answer 25...Rd8
    with 26.Kb1 and running out to a2.

    As the game panned out you can see he is correct in seeing the threats came
    flying down the d-file but it is the c-file that does for him.

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments
  11. Standard memberMarinkatomb
    wotagr8game
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    11 Oct '12 18:31
    Ok, here's a pure positional sacrafice that doesn't win material and doesn't create an instant mate. Black sacrafices his Queen to weaken whites black squares.

    Invert BoardPGNHeaders


    Great analysis of this here...

    http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8540
  12. A
    Standard memberAldan
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    12 Oct '12 19:52
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Aldan.

    Which piece sacrifice are asking about mate, I saw two.

    Mind you are after reading:

    [b]"Making a sacrifice implies there was a choice of avoiding it, so unless Black
    foresaw this and intended to give up his knight on e5, it was not a sacrifice.     "

    Perhaps I never saw any sacrifices at all.

    If you sacrifice a piece with a mov ...[text shortened]... le Philidor Mate type things after f6 and Qb3+....Yes?...Rae8 looks good.}[/pgn][/b]
    Dear Greenpawn34: Thanks for expending time and effort to review my game with Steffko. I am going to download the analysis of both you and Duchess64 and study them as I am sure I will learn from them. Aldan
  13. A
    Standard memberAldan
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    13 Oct '12 13:16
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Aldan.

    Which piece sacrifice are asking about mate, I saw two.

    Mind you are after reading:

    [b]"Making a sacrifice implies there was a choice of avoiding it, so unless Black
    foresaw this and intended to give up his knight on e5, it was not a sacrifice.     "

    Perhaps I never saw any sacrifices at all.

    If you sacrifice a piece with a mov ...[text shortened]... le Philidor Mate type things after f6 and Qb3+....Yes?...Rae8 looks good.}[/pgn][/b]
    Hi Greenpawn34: I played the a rook instead of the f rook to e 8 because it seemed likely that both f pawns would be advanced and exchanged opening up the f file. If this occurred, I did not to have to use a move to move my rook back to f8 to take advantage of the open f file. I believe that this was the most important move I made in the game. Thanks against for your comments. Aldan
  14. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    13 Oct '12 14:191 edit
    Hi Aldan.

    Let use a diagram so people can see what we are talking about.


    When I skip through a game candidate moves leap out at me - my instinct
    was first Rfe8 and d8 was for the a8 Rook.
    Of course I'm guided by the knowledge Black wins but I have learned never
    to ignore your gut.

    So I paused here to give it a 'why this?'.
    I could see good things for both moves but as the game went on I could
    see why Rae8 was far better.
    I thought it was deeper than possibly what it was. Here.


    Note the Black Rook on f8 is preventing possible Phildor ideas.
    Also here Black played Bxg4 (the 2nd sac) he has no need to give back the
    piece. Bc8 which would seem silly with the Rook still on d8 holds onto the piece.

    Trust your gut, but sometimes it is wrong.
  15. V
    Standard memberVarenka
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    13 Oct '12 16:131 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Note the Black Rook on f8 is preventing possible Phildor ideas.
    Also here Black played Bxg4 (the 2nd sac) he has no need to give back the
    piece. Bc8 which would seem silly with the Rook still on d8 holds onto the piece.
    Two guidelines:
    i) improve your worst placed piece
    ii) a piece can be improved by not moving it (!) due to other changes in the position



    Here the king may try going to e1 and possibly f2. Why not? Then it's not blocking the rook on a1 and there are more White pieces on the kingside to help defend the king.

    But after: Ke1, f6, g4, Bd7, Kf2?!, fxe5, f5, we get:



    Note how the role of the rook on f8 has improved and it didn't even need to move. Black is threatening h5. But if we take the f8 rook and put it on a8, White is surviving more easily with the Ke1-f2 idea. So keeping the rook on f8 is better for covering both the Kc1 and Ke1 options.

    GP - I don't see any Philidor ideas with a pawn on h6 rather than h7 ?!
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