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  1. Standard member thesonofsaul
    King of the Ashes
    13 Mar '09 20:15
    Recently, I played a game in which I endevored to sacrifice my way out of a very complicated situation into what I believed would lead to a drawn position for me. My opponent had a higher rated than I did at the time so I thought that even with the white pieces a draw wouldn't be bad. It happened more or less as I figured it would, and I either had a draw by repitition or I would get a significant advantage in the game. My opponent refused the draw, saying something along the lines that the game "deserved" a "result" one way or the other. He gave me the advantage so the game would go on. As it turned out that advantage was enough for me to win the game.

    So I ask the forum this. Are there more players here who believe that a draw is not a proper result for a chess game? That a complex well played game "deserves" to end in a win or a loss?

    If anyone wants I can post the game, even though it is not significant to the point.
  2. 13 Mar '09 20:27
    Post the game.

    I'm reading it as though the stronger player is saying
    "play on you are winning."
    Very sporting of him.
  3. Standard member RECUVIC
    international loser
    13 Mar '09 20:43
    A good draw if there be such a thing [i personally believe so,but others have their own opinions as always],is a draw where both sides fought the game as best they could at the time of the game,and neither player believed they had played quite well enough to achieve a forced win,or considered that the remaining possibly large number of moves required made it simply not worth their time and or extra effort to continue a doubtful won endgame.A bad draw is one where a draw is already agreed before the game commences! I know ,as I have in the past been guilty of that myself as a surprisingly large number of chess players have!There are no doubt other forms of 'bad draws' but that is the worst type I am aware of!----------
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Mar '09 21:18
    To say that a draw is not a "proper" result of a game is absurd. More than half of the games at the very highest levels of chess end in draws. Are there "good draws" and "bad draws"? Sure. A good draw is where you were losing and drew the game and a bad draw is where you were winning and drew the game.
  5. Subscriber AttilaTheHorn
    Erro Ergo Sum
    13 Mar '09 21:28
    >Up to the year 2000, of the 812 games played for the World Championship, 454 (55.9 have ended in a draw.
    >In a survey of a 257,837-game database from 1490 to 2003 in which the average rating of the players was 2250, White won 94,856 (36.8, Black won 68,103 (26.4, and 94,878 (36.8 were drawn.
  6. Subscriber AttilaTheHorn
    Erro Ergo Sum
    13 Mar '09 21:31
    I don't know how the smilies got into my above post, but here's another try at it:

    >Up to the year 2000, of the 812 games played for the World Championship, 454 (55.9 have ended in a draw.
    >In a survey of a 257,837-game database from 1490 to 2003 in which the average rating of the players was 2250, White won 94,856 (36.8&, Black won 68,103 (26.4, and 94,878 (36.8 were drawn.
  7. 13 Mar '09 21:34
    I must admit that sometimes in real life OTB tournaments I take draws despite having a very slight advantage that with best play should in theory win. But practically speaking I am not a robot and that sometimes you doubt your ability to convert a complicated position depending on how you're feeling at that particular point. Maybe you're just flat out exhausted from the previous game and it would require an enormous amount of precision (i.e. read brain draining analysis) to convert the win and if you screw up could even lose. Particularly with black pieces and against a stronger opponent I'd take the draw and leave myself with more energy for the next game as white. It's rather unsporting, maybe even cowardly, but you have to be practical sometimes, weighing the benefits like RECUVIC mentioned.

    Those who play those multiple 3-hour games a day weekend tourneys will know what I'm talking about. It's bad but sometimes you just don't have to stamina and don't want to jeopardize the guaranteed 1/2 point when a draw is offered.

    Sometimes we look at games after the fact and have no idea what the mood/feeling or sometimes even tournament strategy of the player was during the game so we make assessments based on the position alone, but these types of draws occur very frequently for non-theoretical reasons.
  8. 13 Mar '09 21:48
    Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn
    I don't know how the smilies got into my above post, but here's another try at it:
    Put a space between % and )
  9. Subscriber AttilaTheHorn
    Erro Ergo Sum
    13 Mar '09 22:15
    Originally posted by MontyMoose
    Put a space between % and )
    OK, thanks
  10. Standard member thesonofsaul
    King of the Ashes
    14 Mar '09 01:07 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Post the game.

    I'm reading it as though the stronger player is saying
    "play on you are winning."
    Very sporting of him.
    In a way he was saying that. He had the choice of letting me draw the game or giving me material and positional advantage. He chose the latter.

    Here is the game.



    Edit: The combo that would lead to a draw by rep starts roughly on move 24, Rxb6. I say roughly because I was thinking about it before that though I couldn't say when the idea actually entered my mind and when I decided it was feasible. He refuses the draw on move 31 where he blocks the check with his queen.
  11. Standard member Grampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    14 Mar '09 09:14 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by jnguyen
    I must admit that sometimes in real life OTB tournaments I take draws despite having a very slight advantage that with best play should in theory win. But practically speaking I am not a robot and that sometimes you doubt your ability to convert a complicated position depending on how you're feeling at that particular point. Maybe you're just flat out exha ition alone, but these types of draws occur very frequently for non-theoretical reasons.
    Appreciate your insights. Seems, though, that "... unsporting, maybe even cowardly... " may be a tad harsh. Loss avoidance is priority one.

    Just checked the performance stats and am surprised to realize that I actually walk that walk: draws = 23.7% and loses 20.1% (384 games).
  12. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    14 Mar '09 11:17 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    Recently, I played a game in which I endevored to sacrifice my way out of a very complicated situation into what I believed would lead to a drawn position for me. My opponent had a higher rated than I did at the time so I thought that even with the white pieces a draw wouldn't be bad. It happened more or less as I figured it would, and I either had a ?

    If anyone wants I can post the game, even though it is not significant to the point.
    Usually draw is worse than win but definitely better than a loss. But should be said that not only the result matters - I have seen some draw games which are much more interesting some win/loss games.