Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 30 Oct '12 15:14
    I have been randomly selecting public games to look at. At move 29 in Game 9574303 black is in check. He had two ways of capturing the checking pawn. One would leave him with an isolated rook pawn. The other, which in fact he chose, left him with an isolated queen pawn. There may be reasons specific to the position that black chose to do that, but let me ask if there is some rule of thumb (not specific to the position of the moment in a game) that favors, for later end game purposes, isolating one’s own rook pawn versus isolating a non-rook pawn.

    I know that in the end game rook pawns tend to be less valuable. Is it fair to say that by isolating a rook pawn, one is setting up for less damage because the rook pawn was weaker to begin with? That would be the best I could come up with as a rule of thumb, but I am open to contrary ideas.

    (Off-topic, but this game features what must have been a heartbreaking decision by black to abandon his advanced g pawn at move 39. This leads to black being down two rooks to one rook. But white is so concerned about black’s b pawn that white gives the rook advantage away, at which point a draw becomes inevitable.)
  2. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    30 Oct '12 15:24
  3. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    30 Oct '12 15:47 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    I have been randomly selecting public games to look at. At move 29 in Game 9574303 black is in check. He had two ways of capturing the checking pawn. One would leave him with an isolated rook pawn. The other, which in fact he chose, left him with an isolated queen pawn. There may be reasons specific to the position that black chose to do that, bu ...[text shortened]... ck’s b pawn that white gives the rook advantage away, at which point a draw becomes inevitable.)
    Rules of thumb are dangerous. Chess doesn't really lend itself very well to generalisation. I think blacks idea of playing Rg4 and h4 was the correct idea but he misplayed it somewhat. I don't know, perhaps black would have been better capturing 29.bxc5 in an attempt to remove any checks from whites options. It's a very hard ending to judge as there are so many weaknesses all over the board, there must be a dozen forced lines that are based on different ideas that need to be calculated many many moves. A nightmare ending. My gut says black should win this, but it's very hard to say..



    This looks a little more solid for black in hindsight. Rg4 still works but white doesn't invade blacks position down the c file. It is also possible for black to create a passed pawn by playing c4. It needs preparing, but all in all i'd say black is calling the shots..
  4. 30 Oct '12 16:43
    What about Bxb4? If you take with the c-pawn, you once again isolate your d-pawn and if you take with the a-pawn you give white the dangerous Outside Passed Pawn. Looking at it again I'd say you can counter-create one with c4. It looks dangerous for white in all cases. I think black should start pounding the backward pawns on e3 and g3 by getting a knight to e4 and doubling on the g-file. It all looks hairy. Don't give m opinion much weight, I'm not very strong.😞 I'll see what Shredder thinks…It gives -1.40 for black, so maybe I do have some ability😏
  5. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    30 Oct '12 16:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by HikaruShindo
    What about Bxb4? If you take with the c-pawn, you once again isolate your d-pawn and if you take with the a-pawn you give white the dangerous Outside Passed Pawn. Looking at it again I'd say you can counter-create one with c4. It looks dangerous for white in all cases. I think black should start pounding the backward pawns on e3 and g3 by getting a knig 😞 I'll see what Shredder thinks…It gives -1.40 for black, so maybe I do have some ability😏
    I think Bxb4 is a serious error. After axb4 Ra1 c4 white is faced with two bad choices. Either allow c3 and let black have a protected passed pawn on the third rank or play play bxc4 and face connected passed pawns (which, if they make it to the third rank together, the rooks are notoriously bad at defending against). Whites a pawn is a slight threat, but blacks King is easily close enough to deal with it..



    In this position black has a very strong continuation (obviously it is whites move, but the threat from black is) ..h4! If gxh4 then ..Rg4 threatens mate in one. In fact, white is definitely mated on the next move. Therefore gxh4 is out of the question and black can play hxg4 which gives him a passed pawn and also allows his Rh8 to invade down the h-file. Very dangerous for white..
  6. 30 Oct '12 17:17
    I wonder what is wrong with 37. .. Rxa2.



    There must be a way to win this for black, isn't it?
  7. 30 Oct '12 17:47
    Well, then white's pawn runs and queens with check.
  8. 30 Oct '12 23:49
    Originally posted by Marinkatomb ..h4! If gxh4 then ..Rg4 threatens mate in one. In fact, white is definitely mated on the next move. Therefore gxh4 is out of the question and black can play hxg4 which gives him a passed pawn and also allows his Rh8 to invade down the h-file...[/b]
    Nice! I had not noticed that.
  9. 31 Oct '12 00:03
    Also worth mentioning is that at 45 white could have exchanged rook for pawn at b4, leading to him having rook + 2 pawns vs. rook + 1 pawn. I'm not sure if white would still be able to avoid a draw, though.
  10. 31 Oct '12 00:13
    I like the final position. Black is completely winning and he offers/accepts a draw πŸ™„
  11. 31 Oct '12 00:17
    Originally posted by HikaruShindo
    ... the dangerous Outside Passed Pawn.
    What is it that makes a passed rook pawn especially dangerous? That the enemy king may have farther to go to get to it?
  12. Standard member ChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
    31 Oct '12 00:19
    "An isolated pawn spreads gloom all over the chessboard."- Savielly Tartakower
  13. 31 Oct '12 21:01
    I'd prefer not to πŸ™‚
  14. Subscriber Paul Leggettonline
    Chess Librarian
    31 Oct '12 23:03 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KnightStalker47
    I like the final position. Black is completely winning and he offers/accepts a draw πŸ™„
    Can you elaborate on your winning method for black? I'd like to add it to my notes.

    White to move:

  15. 01 Nov '12 00:19
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    Can you elaborate on your winning method for black? I'd like to add it to my notes.

    White to move:

    [fen]8/8/8/3k1p2/5P2/6K1/8/8 w - - 0 53[/fen]
    Nope can't elaborate, because I am completely wrong 😳