Originally posted by coquetteDoes this mean that "space" is the place where no sound can be heard?
oh my. this is a semantics conflict, not a physics conflict.
"space" is being used as a general term, rather than more precise language.
"sound" needs molecules to happen. "sound" doesn't happen in a vacuum.
"space" isn't a perfect vacuum, but the number of molecules that would be needed to register a sound don't exist in a "near perfect vacuum" th ...[text shortened]... HP argument is stated in space so that no one can hear it, is it still inane?
No of course not.
Do we define "space" the place where there is vacuum?
Of course not.
Astronauts can talk and be heard when in space suits in space. So I still say that sound can be heard in space.
Yes, and it is a discussion about semantics. And I didn't started with this. (I don't know who...)
I say sound is not restricted to Earth.
I say the Earth could be found in space.
This is what I say. Am I wrong?
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Originally posted by kenanBut I clearly see what you mean.
No.
People not used with the concepts of 'space', 'vacuum', sound', and all other terms we've used, they will very easily think the space is the black thing up there, with small light spots, that you see at the night. Some think that space is full of non-gravity (even at the surface of the moon), and the vacuum itself makes the space gravitational free.
We who have used with these concepts, I think in my humble opinion, should be aware of the terms more exact definitions and use them as such in order to have a meaningful discussion.
...but what do I know...
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou just have to learn to ignore some people.
But I clearly see what you mean.
People not used with the concepts of 'space', 'vacuum', sound', and all other terms we've used, they will very easily think the space is the black thing up there, with small light spots, that you see at the night. Some think that space is full of non-gravity (even at the surface of the moon), and the vacuum itself make ...[text shortened]... and use them as such in order to have a meaningful discussion.
...but what do I know...
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou can hear sound on earth ergo you can hear sound in spave is wrong. Sound always need a material medium to propagate and space-time isn't a material medium.
You say my reasoning is flawed but you don't say why and where.
Do you honestly say that there is no sound anywhere (anywhere at all?) in space even if you don't consider the Earth as a part of space?
Or do you say that space is vacuum and nothing but vaccum and empty space?
It is a widespread myth that no one can hear you scream in space.
In vacuum, yes, but inside a spacesuit a scream can be horrifyingly loud.
Originally posted by FabianFnasI think it is best for this discussion to talk about space-time.
Does this mean that "space" is the place where no sound can be heard?
No of course not.
Do we define "space" the place where there is vacuum?
Of course not.
Astronauts can talk and be heard when in space suits in space. So I still say that sound can be heard in space.
Yes, and it is a discussion about semantics. And I didn't started with th ...[text shortened]... icted to Earth.
I say the Earth could be found in space.
This is what I say. Am I wrong?
Space-time is the arena where all physicall processes happen. It is a very abstract concept and a somewhat difficult concept to grasp at first. Everything you know lies in this concept. And vacuum can be thought as space-time without nothing on it.
When you talk about astronauts talking in space (meaning outter space) you have to keep in mind that they oxigen to breath inside their helmets and that provides the medium for the sound waves to propagate. As I told there is a school level experiment that you canb see (hear) that sound need a medium to propagate. You have a bell inside a glass orb tha is made to ring by sme electrical circuit. And then all (not really all of course) air is extracted and when you press the button you will see the drum hitting the bell but you won't hear a thing. So I think you just mixing up things here.
The other problem we have are the different meanings of the word space. Sometimes it means outter-space, others it's just where things happen so I think maybe it's best to use the use the words outter-space and space to differentiate them.
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Originally posted by adam warlockI've never said that sound can be heard everywhere in space. What I'm sayng is that there are places in space where sound can be heard.
You can hear sound on earth ergo you can hear sound in spave is wrong. Sound always need a material medium to propagate and space-time isn't a material medium.
If there is a medium where sound can propagate there can be sound. In vast volumes of space there is vacuum, but there are also places where sounds can be heard.
I'd like to mention some places in space where sound can be heard: In the atmosphere of Jupiter, inside the Sun, in the waters of Europa, in the International Space Station (ISS), etc. And if we concider the earth as one place in space, well, at the surface of Earth, and a lot of other places.
Is this semantics? Yes, probably. 🙂
Originally posted by FabianFnasdo you believe sound could travel through the material in a black hole or not?
I've never said that sound can be heard everywhere in space. What I'm sayng is that there are places in space where sound can be heard.
If there is a medium where sound can propagate there can be sound. In vast volumes of space there is vacuum, but there are also places where sounds can be heard.
I'd like to mention some places in space where sound ...[text shortened]... , at the surface of Earth, and a lot of other places.
Is this semantics? Yes, probably. 🙂
Originally posted by joe shmoIf by a black hole mean everything inside the event horizon sphere - I'd say no.
do you believe sound could travel through the material in a black hole or not?
If by a black hole mean the 'thing' where the source of the gravitation emanates *and* this 'thing' is a singularity with infinite dencity - I'd say no.
Else I'd say yes.
The problem is that no one knows wether the 'thing' is a singularity or not.
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Originally posted by joe shmoNobody knows much about blackholes, their density and temperature etc....Many theories....
do you believe sound could travel through the material in a black hole or not?
However, with some terrestrial measurements we can learn some other facts.
Sound has two main characteristics to it: Intensity and frequency. (Frequency is measured by hertz, intensity by decibel)
We've said that in air it goes 340 per sec so if we hear a thunder 9 seconds later after its struck then 340x9=3090 meters, is approximately 3 kms away.
The speed of sound does not change depending on the fequency, in every frequency in goes the same. The speed of sound depends on three things: temperature(the speed of sound is inversly vary with the squareroot of the temperature)., atmospheric pressure (air pressure or altitude) and the density of the air.
In case you wanted to know some numbers, below chart shows the speed of sound of certain liquids in certain temperatures. Many thanks to my friend Eren's vast knowledge on the frequency technique of sound and sound in general.
Liquids------------------Temperature(Celcius)--------Sp. of Sound(m/s)
Acetone-------------------------20C---------------------------1192--------
Aniline--------------------------20C----------------------------1656-------
Benzol--------------------------20C----------------------------1326-------
Ethyl alcohol--------------------20C----------------------------1168-------
Glycerine-----------------------20C-----------------------------1923-------
Mercury-------------------------20C-----------------------------1451-------
Methyl alcohol------------------20C-----------------------------1123------
Water---------------------------25C-------------------------1401-1497----
Sea Water---------------------0-17C-------------------------1440-1450---
Paraffin oil---------------------33.5C-----------------------------1420-----
Cedar oil----------------------29C------------------------------1406-------
Eucalyptus oil------------------29.5C-----------------------------1276-----
Gasoline-----------------------34C-------------------------------1250------
Poppy seed oil-----------------31.5C----------------------------1772------
Kerosene-----------------------34C------------------------------1295------
Olive Oil------------------------32.5C------------------------------1381----
Pistachio oil--------------------31.5C------------------------------1562----
Motor oil------------------------32.5C------------------------------1425---
Originally posted by kenanThis brings my mind to a question. How would it be with sound in absolute zero temperature (-273 oC or so). As far as I know absolute zero is when the particles have stopped their movement completely. Or would it not be possible to have sound in AZ because the sound waves would oscillate particles so that the temperature increases a little?
In air the speed of sound is 340 meters/second.
The speed of sound does not change depeding on the frquency.
The speed of sound is depends inversly on the squareroot of temperature; higher the temperatur faster the speed.