Posers and Puzzles
04 Feb 05
04 Feb 05
Imagine that you could arrange the eight pieces on the back rank any way you wanted. What would be the ideal arrangement? That is, which arrangement would be most likely to win against any other arrangement?
I offered this one in the chess960(Fischer Random Chess) thread:
BKNRRNQB
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=19231&page=2
Phlabibit suggested that the standard arrangement is the best. To test the two arrangements, he ran two games on Fritz8, one with my arrangement as White, and one with the standard as White, with Fritz controlling both sides. When mine was White, they drew; when mine was Black, it lost. At this time the evidence suggests my opening is worse than the standard.
Anyone have other suggestions?
04 Feb 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI do not claim to be an expert on chess960, however, is it not true that the king must be between the two rooks? If so, yours does not appear to be valid.
Imagine that you could arrange the eight pieces on the back rank any way you wanted. What would be the ideal arrangement? That is, which arrangement would be most likely to win against any other arrangement?
I offered this one in the chess960(Fischer Random Chess) thread:
BKNRRNQB
[i]http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?thre ...[text shortened]... the evidence suggests my opening is worse than the standard.
Anyone have other suggestions?
Having said that, I think this thread is interesting, and I am going to try a few ideas out!
04 Feb 05
2 edits
Originally posted by AThousandYoungFritz 8 with AThousandYoung's setup as black against a standard white.
Imagine that you could arrange the eight pieces on the back rank any way you wanted. What would be the ideal arrangement? That is, which arrangement would be most likely to win against any other arrangement?
I offered this one in ...[text shortened]... is worse than the standard. [/i]
Anyone have other suggestions?
1. d4 g5 2. c3 e5 3. Nf3 f6 4. e3 g4 5. Nfd2 exd4
Depth 21/21 2,515,830 kN in 27:01
No idea what that proves.
EDIT: The quote was leaking.
04 Feb 05
Originally posted by XanthosNZI can't decipher your post. Are you copying what Fritz told you, and saying you don't understand it either? Or do you understand it but I don't?
Fritz 8 with AThousandYoung's setup as black against a standard white.
1. d4 g5 2. c3 e5 3. Nf3 f6 4. e3 g4 5. Nfd2 exd4
Depth 21/21 2,515,830 kN in 27:01
No idea what that proves.
EDIT: The quote was leaking.
I've never played Chess960, so I don't know how it works.
In Chess960, just before the start of every game, both players pieces on their respective back rows receive an identical random shuffle using the Chess960 Computerized Shuffler, which is programmed to set up the pieces in any combination, with the provisos that one Rook has to be to the left and one Rook has to be to the right of the King, and one Bishop has to be on a light-colored square and one Bishop has to be on a dark-colored square. White and Black have identical positions.
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:slWSbmlPMWUJ:www.chesstigers.de/download/chess960_rules.pdf+chess960+rules&hl=en
It looks like you're right. For the purposes of this thread, we're ignoring the rule that says White and Black have identical positions; we're also throwing out the random placement. Apparently my setup is illegal. I'll think about it and throw out another one later if I'm in the mood.
Castling is complex; you can look at the linked site for that rule. I don't understand it totally.
04 Feb 05
2 edits
Originally posted by AThousandYoungNow, don't forget the original thing I was talking about was there was a time when you could set the pieces up in your back rank ANY WAY YOU LIKE.
I can't decipher your post. Are you copying what Fritz told you, and saying you don't understand it either? Or do you understand it but I don't?
I've never played Chess960, so I don't know how it works.
In Chess960, just ...[text shortened]... at the linked site for that rule. I don't understand it totally.
Still not sure where I read that, but lets pretend it is true. Thus, we are not really playing Fishcher... were trying to find the best set up (and I really think it is RNBQKBNR)
Also, just as a note... the Fritz game was run by a friend at RHP, and the second game I posted was run by me using WinBoard GNU engine.
Thousand, you say your setup lost on your computer? Is that game around posted somewhere?
P
04 Feb 05
Originally posted by PalynkaIsn't a computer's book 'thrown out the window' once the other side is set up odd?
Don't forget that the classic back rank has much more historical data and it's logical that the computers do better in that position, even though it doesn't mean it's the best one.
P
05 Feb 05
2 edits
Originally posted by PhlabibitNo, I haven't run it on my computer. I thought you ran it and my setup lost.
Now, don't forget the original thing I was talking about was there was a time when you could set the pieces up in your back rank ANY WAY YOU LIKE.
Still not sure where I read that, but lets pretend it is true. Thus, we are not really ...[text shortened]... lost on your computer? Is that game around posted somewhere?
P
We need to be careful about not using 960 rules, as they include castling rules. If it's just about setting them up any way we want, how does castling work in nonstandard setups?
05 Feb 05
Responding to a couple of things.
AThousandYoung: I was mearly posting what Fritz gave me when given the position. It seems to think that the moves I posted lead to an even position. Look at the moves though. They don't make sense to me. Either the engine is looking deeper than I am or it doesn't have a clue what it's doing.
Phlabibit: Yes the opening book is thrown out if the setup isn't standard (for either side). Of course chess engines have been developed to play from the standard position so who knows what strange things we could run into (eg. Fritz gives a positive value to connected or centralized rooks. If a position starts with them then it gets that value. However playing against a position with rooks starting in the centre wing attacks would be more likely reducing the effect of these centralised rooks.).
AThousandYoung (again): In chess960 the king is always between the rooks and castling is done according to the normal rules. If you castle queenside (argh a-side then) then your king and rook (no matter what the original positions were) go to the standard castled positions. That would be King on c1 and Rook on d1. All restrictions on castling apply.
The other rule in chess960 is that the bishops must be on opposite colour squares.
Obviously if we are ignoring the chess960 restrictions there are positions in which castling is impossible.
05 Feb 05
2 edits
Originally posted by XanthosNZOK, I just set up the position. My setup is White, Black is standard. I am using Combat Chess. It's the only program I have. The computer's playing itself, Black can castle both ways and White cannot castle. Both sides are on the highest skill level. Let's see what happens. I turned off all animations and sound effects so the computer could focus on actually playing.
Responding to a couple of things.
AThousandYoung: I was mearly posting what Fritz gave me when given the position. It seems to think that the moves I posted lead to an even position. Look at the moves though. They don't make sense to ...[text shortened]... restrictions there are positions in which castling is impossible.
I'm thinking that switching the Rooks and Knights in my setup might be better maybe...I'm not sure.
05 Feb 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWhite - my setup! - won.
OK, I just set up the position. My setup is White, Black is standard. I am using Combat Chess. It's the only program I have. The computer's playing itself, Black can castle both ways and White cannot castle. Both sides are on the highest skill level. Let's see what happens. I turned off all animations and sound effects so the computer could ...[text shortened]... thinking that switching the Rooks and Knights in my setup might be better maybe...I'm not sure.
I have the PGN, but I can't open it. I downloaded Chesspad, but I can't find a way to copy-paste from there to here. Nor can I copy-paste from Combat Chess. How can I copy the moves here without typing them out myself?
06 Feb 05
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungUse winboard (download from http://www.tim-mann.org/xboard.html if you don't already have it).
White - my setup! - won.
I have the PGN, but I can't open it. I downloaded Chesspad, but I can't find a way to copy-paste from there to here. Nor can I copy-paste from Combat Chess. How can I copy the moves here without typing them out myself?
Use File - Load Game to load *.PGN files, or just play the moves, then File - Copy Game to Clipboard, then paste them here.
Or just open the *.PGN file with any text editor.
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThanks! Here it is.
Use winboard (download from http://www.tim-mann.org/xboard.html if you don't already have it).
Use File - Load Game to load *.PGN files, or just play the moves, then File - Copy Game to Clipboard, then paste them here.
Or just open the *.PGN file with any text editor.
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2005:02:04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/BKNRRNQB w kq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
{--------------
r n b q k b n r
p p p p p p p p
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
P P P P P P P P
B K N R R N Q B
white to play
--------------}
1. d4 d5 2. g4 h5 3. g5 e6 4. e4 Ne7 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nd3 c6 7. c4 Ne7 8.
Be4 a5 9. Ne5 g6 10. f4 a4 11. d5 cxd5 12. cxd5 exd5 13. Ne3 Qc7 14. Rc1
Qd8 15. Nxd5 Nxd5 16. Nxg6 Be6 17. Nxh8 Nxf4 18. Qe3 Nd5 19. Bxd5 Qxd5 20.
Rc8+ Kd7 21. Rxf8 Nc6 22. Rxa8 Qxa2+ 23. Kc2 Nb4+ 24. Kd1 Bg4+ 25. Re2
Qxa1+ 26. Kd2 Qxb2+ 27. Ke1 Qb1+ 28. Kf2 Qf5+ 29. Kg2 Bxe2 30. Qxe2 Qxg5+
31. Kh3 Qf5+ 32. Kh4 Nc6 33. Qe8+ Kc7 34. Qxf7+ Qxf7 35. Nxf7 b5 36. Kxh5
Kb7 37. Re8 Kc7 38. Ne5 Nb4 39. h4 Kb7 40. Nf3 a3 41. Re7+ Kb6 42. Re6+ Kb7
43. Nd4 Nd3 44. Re3 a2 45. Nc2 Nb4 46. Na1 Nd5 47. Rf3 Nb4 48. Kg5 Nc6 49.
h5 b4 50. h6 Ne5 51. Rf1 b3 52. Nxb3 a1=Q 53. Nxa1 Nc4 54. h7 Nd2 55. Rf4
Kb6 56. h8=Q Kc6 57. Qc3+ Nc4 58. Rxc4+ Kd6 59. Rc7 Kd5 60. Rd7+ Ke4 61.
Qd3+ Ke5 62. Re7#
1-0
06 Feb 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungDoes anyone else DARE to challenge my mighty setup?!
Thanks! Here it is.
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2005:02:04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/BKNRRNQB w kq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
{--------------
r n b q k b n r
p p p p p p p p
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
P P P P P P P ...[text shortened]... 56. h8=Q Kc6 57. Qc3+ Nc4 58. Rxc4+ Kd6 59. Rc7 Kd5 60. Rd7+ Ke4 61.
Qd3+ Ke5 62. Re7#
1-0
07 Feb 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI think we need a bit more evidence before declaring your setup superior. I'll run it overnight on Junior 9 with yours as black and a lot of time. If it wins then we can consider it better than the standard setup.
Does anyone else DARE to challenge my mighty setup?!
But I think this is really interesting. Which setup really is best? Even if yours wins, I'm willing to bet that there's a better one out there. I'm sure somewhere someone has played millions of computer matches and found out which really is best, but I don't have that kind of time. People should keep coming up with ideas and we'll try them. It may be a fun contest a lead us to some insights about chess.