# Blind first move poser

JS357
Posers and Puzzles 29 Jul '11 21:47
1. 29 Jul '11 21:47
I'd put this in the chess forum but I might get jumped on for it not being about chess as played.

Suppose you are playing as black, but there is a rule change -- black has to decide their first move without knowing what white's first move is. From that point on, play is normal. You don't have to disclose your first move until white has moved, but you have to pre-commit. What move will you make, and why?

Now, suppose you are white, playing under the above rule change. Before you play your first move, you are thinking about what black's pre-committed first move might be. Will it affect your choice of first move? If so, what will be your first move, and why?

Of course, black knows white is thinking about this, and so on...

Another way to answer these questions, if you prefer, is, what commonly used first moves will you definitely NOT make?

How do you think this rule change would affect the game -- would some openings go out of style, would white have an significant advantage, etc.?
2. sonhouse
Fast and Curious
30 Jul '11 02:32
Originally posted by JS357
I'd put this in the chess forum but I might get jumped on for it not being about chess as played.

Suppose you are playing as black, but there is a rule change -- black has to decide their first move without knowing what white's first move is. From that point on, play is normal. You don't have to disclose your first move until white has moved, but you have t ...[text shortened]... ame -- would some openings go out of style, would white have an significant advantage, etc.?
This is like Kriegspiel chess, several versions, one where you put up a barrier between your half and the opponents half of the board and you both move then move the barrier, which you could do in your variant after the first move.

My idea would be just to move out a knight, there would be no instant takes as opposed to pushing a pawn up two, the other side could have moved its pawns up two and then a take could happen.

Moving a knight out, either one, would stop an instant take.
3. wolfgang59
Mr. Wolf
30 Jul '11 03:25
Originally posted by JS357
I'd put this in the chess forum but I might get jumped on for it not being about chess as played.

Suppose you are playing as black, but there is a rule change -- black has to decide their first move without knowing what white's first move is. From that point on, play is normal. You don't have to disclose your first move until white has moved, but you have t ...[text shortened]... ame -- would some openings go out of style, would white have an significant advantage, etc.?
1 ... Nf6
Doesnt matter what white plays first.

1 ... e5 is a no no.

Taking your idea one step further what if before seeing blacks move white had to write down his 2nd? and before seeing white's 2nd move black had to write down his reply? et cetera.
4. sonhouse
Fast and Curious
30 Jul '11 05:00
Originally posted by wolfgang59
1 ... Nf6
Doesnt matter what white plays first.

1 ... e5 is a no no.

Taking your idea one step further what if before seeing blacks move white had to write down his 2nd? and before seeing white's 2nd move black had to write down his reply? et cetera.
In one version of kreigspiel, you put the barrier up between the white and black side of the board and play X amount of moves behind your lines, then take away the barrier, and play from there, white moves first. You basically set up a position you think will counter whatever blind position the opponent has set up. All the pawns on the 4th rank, rooks right behind, king in the corner, whatever.
5. wolfgang59
Mr. Wolf
31 Jul '11 01:04
Originally posted by sonhouse
In one version of kreigspiel, you put the barrier up between the white and black side of the board and play X amount of moves behind your lines, then take away the barrier, and play from there, white moves first. You basically set up a position you think will counter whatever blind position the opponent has set up. All the pawns on the 4th rank, rooks right behind, king in the corner, whatever.
yesI've played various kriegspiel versions. What I am proposing is qite different though as each player sees the board except without their opponents last move.
6. 31 Jul '11 04:47
Originally posted by wolfgang59
1 ... Nf6
Doesnt matter what white plays first.

1 ... e5 is a no no.

Taking your idea one step further what if before seeing blacks move white had to write down his 2nd? and before seeing white's 2nd move black had to write down his reply? et cetera.
1...Nf6 looks best. I think you are correct about 1...e4 but if white thinks black is a rational player, white thinks black will not stupidly play 1...e5, so white won't give preference to 1. Nf3 or d4. But they are decent moves regardless.

On your suggestion to pre-commit on each move, the trick is how to deal with an illegal pre-committed move. Would it be a loss?
7. 31 Jul '11 14:45
Originally posted by wolfgang59
1 ... Nf6
Doesnt matter what white plays first.
That's somewhat (but not greatly) suspect if White plays 1. e4. The Alekine is certainly playable, but it has to fit one's style to begin with.If you don't know how to handle it, it can be a hassle.

My suggestion would be 1. ... d5. The worst possibility that I can see is, again, 1. e4, but theory for the Scandiwegian has been growing apace the last few years, and many people consider the new (or rather, renewed) lines playable for Black. Similar setups ought to work against 1. c4.

Richard
8. 01 Aug '11 12:48
e4 d5 isnt so bad.
i play it sometimes in my games and it goes something like exd5 qxd5 nc3 qa5...
if i was black i would play d5 or nf6. for white...i wouldnt bother thinking about it. nothing changes for white, so i would play e4.
(another way to put this problem is that black makes one ive, then white gets two in a row, right?)
9. 02 Aug '11 11:06
Originally posted by Banana King
e4 d5 isnt so bad.
i play it sometimes in my games and it goes something like exd5 qxd5 nc3 qa5...
if i was black i would play d5 or nf6. for white...i wouldnt bother thinking about it. nothing changes for white, so i would play e4.
(another way to put this problem is that black makes one ive, then white gets two in a row, right?)
Another decent move would be 1. ... c5. With e4, you get the Sicilian, which is a bonus. With d4, the Benoni, which is playable. With b4, well, who cares? And with anything else, it's decent enough.

Richard
10. 02 Aug '11 12:09
e6 or d6 both look promising to me...
11. Ponderable
chemist
03 Aug '11 14:21
There is a site for chess variants, whose owner is open to set up new variants as long as they are played on a 8x8 board with chess figures.

I would be interested in this Kriegsspiel variant
12. 04 Aug '11 14:50
Originally posted by Banana King
e6 or d6 both look promising to me...
Not very ambitious, though. After 1. Nf3, either move still leaves White to build his centre as he pleases.

Richard