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Posers and Puzzles

Posers and Puzzles

  1. 25 Jul '04 07:15
    Unsolved chess fun...Try to crack this . On your chess board here are 2 Kings...white king on a1 square and the black king on b3. Now, from among the remaining pieces , place a third , on the chess board ,such that (a) neither king is in chek!
    (b) neither side can make any legal move
    (c) the position is arrivable through legal moves
    (d) it is not a double stalemate.

  2. 25 Jul '04 08:01
    Originally posted by sarathian
    Unsolved chess fun...Try to crack this . On your chess board here are 2 Kings...white king on a1 square and the black king on b3. Now, from among the remaining pieces , place a third , on the chess board ,such that (a) neither king is in chek!
    (b) neither side can make any legal move
    (c) the position is arrivable through legal moves
    (d) it is not a double stalemate.

    I have a problem with the wording of the puzzle, especially what b) means. Here is a silly try, though:

    There are many 'solutions' like
    - black queen on c2 or
    - black pawn on c2 or
    - black bishop on c2
    AND white is on the move

    a) no ccheck
    b) white is stalemate so he can't move; black is not on the move
    c) no doubt about that
    d) black is not in stalemate
  3. 25 Jul '04 08:12
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    I have a problem with the wording of the puzzle, especially what b) means. Here is a silly try, though:

    There are many 'solutions' like
    - black queen on c2 or
    - black pawn on c2 or
    - black bishop on c2
    AND white is on the move

    a) no ccheck
    b) white is stalemate so he can't move; black is not on the move
    c) no doubt about that
    d) black is not in stalemate
    The condition (b) means that ,with this position(obtained with the desired solution) ,if it weer black's turn, then black cannot make a move. But at the same time if with the same position if it were white's turn ,then white also cannot make a move..I think that clarifies your point.
  4. 25 Jul '04 08:14
    Originally posted by observantU
    The condition (b) means that ,with this position(obtained with the desired solution) ,if it weer black's turn, then black cannot make a move. But at the same time if with the same position if it were white's turn ,then white also cannot make a move..I think that clarifies your point.
    and that is not in contradiction with d)?
  5. 25 Jul '04 08:15
    Originally posted by observantU
    The condition (b) means that ,with this position(obtained with the desired solution) ,if it weer black's turn, then black cannot make a move. But at the same time if with the same position if it were white's turn ,then white also cannot make a move..I think that clarifies your point.
    I had seen this puzzle in the MINDSPORT column of a weekly magazine which is extinct now. I had found out the solution. But let others try first. There is no point in spoiling the fun ...
  6. 25 Jul '04 08:18
    Originally posted by observantU
    I had seen this puzzle in the MINDSPORT column of a weekly magazine which is extinct now. I had found out the solution. But let others try first. There is no point in spoiling the fun ...
    but at least answer to the questions posted
  7. 25 Jul '04 08:22
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    and that is not in contradiction with d)?
    there is no contradiction. mind the semantics of the title as well as the puzzle..
  8. 26 Jul '04 08:23
    Originally posted by sarathian
    there is no contradiction. mind the semantics of the title as well as the puzzle..
    does " a third " mean one third of the remaining pieces ?
  9. 27 Jul '04 10:01
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    I have a problem with the wording of the puzzle, especially what b) means. Here is a silly try, though:

    There are many 'solutions' like
    - black queen on c2 or
    - black pawn on c2 or
    - black bishop on c2
    AND white is on the move

    a) no ccheck
    b) white is stalemate so he can't move; black is not on the move
    c) no doubt about that
    d) black is not in stalemate
    Mephisto ! ur solution is obviously not correct. In ur solution the condition of black also not being able to make any move , is not fulfilled. Howzzat has given too open a hint. But from there too , there is a long way towards actually finding out the correct solution...
  10. 27 Jul '04 11:54
    Originally posted by sarathian
    Mephisto ! ur solution is obviously not correct. In ur solution the condition of black also not being able to make any move , is not fulfilled. Howzzat has given too open a hint. But from there too , there is a long way towards actually finding out the correct solution...
    I didn't expect my solution to be correct - I called it silly myself. And I can understand some of the semantics. But it doesn't help trying to put more pieces on the board as long as I don't understand the contradiction between a) + b) and d) (assuming 'chek' means 'check'. According to FIDE Laws of chess E.I.01A: "The game is drawn when the player to move has no legal move and his king is not in check. The game is said to end in 'stalemate'. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the stalemate position was legal. ..." I tried to read your a) through d) differently, but I fail.

    Anyone else can help here? Until then, I am off.
  11. 27 Jul '04 12:45
    I'm with Mephisto... unless this is some sort of trick question around the semantics of the riddle (which I suspect it is)... I don't see how it can be that neither side can make a legal move but it ISN'T stalemate.. and as long as I'm on the topic, what the hairy heck is a "double" stalemate?

    The only "hint" was to Howzzat's comment about "a third" referring to a third of the remaining pieces... well that would be 10 pieces out of 30 not on the board... so I'd have to pick 10 pieces, put them ALL on the board and make sure that NONE can make a legal move? That'd be a neat trick. I believe I'd like to see that.
  12. 27 Jul '04 15:56
    Is the solution possibly along the lines of ->
    White's in stalemate, so he can't move... But we can prove from the positions of the pieces that black must have moved last, so he can't legally move because he would be moving twice in a row?
  13. 27 Jul '04 16:52
    Well, if it's white to play and white can't play, then it's a stalemate... although to be fair, I still haven't had anyone explain a "double" stalemate to me...

    So it can be a stalemate... just so long as it isn't a "double" stalemate... which doesn't exist... so rule d) is a ruse, is that the idea?
  14. 27 Jul '04 19:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    I have a problem with the wording of the puzzle, especially what b) means. Here is a silly try, though:

    There are many 'solutions' like
    - black queen on c2 or
    - black pawn on c2 or
    - black bishop on c2
    AND white is on the move
    ...[text shortened]... on the move
    c) no doubt about that
    d) black is not in stalemate
    We can adjust any of those to give a fine answer, Add a black knight on B1 to your setup. White is clearly in stalemate. It is not double stalemate because Black can move, but it is also clear that Black must have moved last, bacause there is no way that White could have moved into that position on his last move, and so Black cannot legally move because he would be making two consecutive moves.

    Given the 10 pieces extra stipulation, we can now add 8 more random Black pieces, as long as they don't put White in check and could have been moved to their positions legally.

    You may ask - how was this silly position reached? Well, one way is that White's king could have been sat at a1 since it was checked by Black's piece on c2. White obviously had some other piece which might have moved to b1 last move and has just been taken by Black's knight.
  15. 27 Jul '04 19:39
    But isn't that just putting white into stalemate? Why didn't he just say: put white king into stalemate at a1?

    (and I still say there's no such thing as "double" stalemate)