1. Joined
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    01 May '08 11:57
    Originally posted by David113
    Yoe mean 21. ... a1=Q# 😛
    Hmm... I won't ever understand these problems.
  2. Joined
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    01 May '08 13:35
    Originally posted by Jirakon
    Well, I've narrowed down White's first move to six possibilities...
    Ah, an inside joke! (took me a while to get)
  3. Joined
    27 Apr '08
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    01 May '08 16:05
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    [call_bluff]Send me a PM with the solution.[/call_bluff]
    Sure. Oh dear, Fritz seems to have crashed. Decision to PM retracted.
  4. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    01 May '08 16:58
    Originally posted by curseknight
    Sure. Oh dear, Fritz seems to have crashed. Decision to PM retracted.
    Yeah, I'd love to see Fritz annotate a proof game. At least half the moves would be "??".
  5. Joined
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    01 May '08 17:36
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Yeah, I'd love to see Fritz annotate a proof game. At least half the moves would be "??".
    🙂 Particularly White.
  6. Joined
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    01 May '08 17:37
    Originally posted by Thomaster
    ????? where is bishop f1

    It must be N-f1 N-e4 N-g3 Nxf1 N-g3 N-e4 N f6 N-g8
    ????? where is bishop c1
  7. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    01 May '08 19:04
    ***SPOILER ALERT***
    OK, I will start to explain the method I used. Anyone still working on it should avoid scrolling down.
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    [This explanation is best suited for experienced PG solvers.]

    Normally, to solve a Proof Game, we count the minimum moves needed for each side to reach the diagram position. However, in a PG like this, that approach is not very helpful. White has nothing on the board to even count!

    Sound proof games [those with only the solution(s) intended by the composer, and NONE other] contain evidence as to what happened. In a problem like this, the absence of certain units is the key evidence. All of White's back-rank pieces, save the King of course, are missing. In particular, Bc1 and Bf1 are missing. Those two tell us much more about the game than the other missing pieces, because the pawn structure dictates that they never moved. Therefore, Black must have captured both of them at home.

    At this point, it is easy for the solver to become overwhelmed. Not only do we have to clean out White's entire back rank, but Black has several pieces that need to be developed, and Pa7 and h7 are missing! Clearly, we need a way to focus our efforts. The last thing we want is to end up solving mainly by trial and error. This is how computers do it; they are much faster at it than we are, yet this problem is (currently) unsolvable by a computer!

    The method I hit upon is this.
    1) Concentrate on the most cumbersome sub-task you can find. Ignore other tasks.
    2) Consider a scheme to accomplish that task [and try to use words, not moves, to describe the scheme].
    3) Consider the sequence of the scheme you chose. Count only moves that directly pertain to that scheme. Count the same way that chess notation works. If White moves, then Black, count that as the same move number. If Black moves, then White, increment the count. Execute the scheme as fast as you possibly can. Ignore 'waiting' moves or moves to attain other plans. The idea here is to see if the scheme can be executed fast enough to satisfy the stipulation.

    My, that was a lot of mumbo-jumbo. Hopefully, an example from the PG 21.0 will make it clearer.

    1) Sub task: kill the two White Bishops. [Obviously this will take ages no matter how it is done.]
    2) Scheme: kill both of them with Black's original Q [from d8].
    3) Sequence: 1.a4 d5 2...Qd6 3...Qa3 [skip White moves that do not help the scheme, and don't worry about the exact route of bQ. We're more worried about speed right now.] 4...Qa1 [again, who cares whether we take the Rook or not. Focus on the Bishops!!] 5.N~ [The N gets out of the way; who cares where] 5...Qxc1 6...Qa1 7...Qa5 8.Qa1 [Now the ball is in White's court and we'll ignore most of Black's moves.] 9.Kd1 10.Kc1 11.Kb1 Ba3 [or the Q moves off the a-file and back, which is just as fast] 12.Ka2 Bc5+ 13.Kb3 Qa1 14...Qxf1 [scheme is done, but let's count the wK going back home, to make sure he can get there on time] 15...Qa1 16...Qa5 17...Ba3 18.Ka2 19.Kb1 20.Kc1 21.Kd1 22.Ke1. Bust! We're one move too slow.

    It's fairly obvious that this scheme cannot be done faster. The hard part now is giving up on it. It's tough to abandon a scheme when it seems like it's so close to working, but [I hope] this sequence analysis shows conclusively that it cannot work.

    Suggested next scheme: promoted Q kills c1, Qd8 kills f1. Anyone care to try it?
  8. In Christ
    Joined
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    01 May '08 23:131 edit
    All the schemes I've tried prior to your post:

    1. Queen takes both white bishops
    2. Queen takes c1, while rook takes f1.
    3. Queen takes c1, promoted pawn takes f1.
    4. Promoted pawn takes both bishops
    5. Promoted pawn takes c1, queen takes f1.
    6. Promoted pawn takes c1, rook takes f1.
    7. Rook takes both bishops.
    8. Rook takes c1, queen takes f1.
    9. Rook takes c1, promoted pawn takes f1.
    10. Either knight takes either bishop.
    11. h rook takes c1, a rook goes to h8.

    I think I might need to recount some of these...
  9. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    02 May '08 00:09
    Originally posted by Jirakon
    All the schemes I've tried prior to your post:

    1. Queen takes both white bishops
    2. Queen takes c1, while rook takes f1.
    3. Queen takes c1, promoted pawn takes f1.
    4. Promoted pawn takes both bishops
    5. Promoted pawn takes c1, queen takes f1.
    6. Promoted pawn takes c1, rook takes f1.
    7. Rook takes both bishops.
    8. Rook takes c1, queen takes f1.
    9. ...[text shortened]... p.
    11. h rook takes c1, a rook goes to h8.

    I think I might need to recount some of these...
    That's a good list. The next step is to apply sequence analysis and figure out which schemes actually have a prayer of working. [We can already cross item #1 off the list, as I showed above.]
  10. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    02 May '08 19:26
    Originally posted by Jirakon
    2. Queen takes c1, while rook takes f1.
    1...d5 2...Qd6-a3-a1xc1-a1-a5 8.Qa1 9.Kd1-c1-b1-Ka2 13.Kb3 Ra1-Rxf1-Ra1-Ra5 17...Ba3 18.Ka2, but we know from the previous analysis that this is too slow. wK needs to be heading back to a2 on move 17.

    Cross item #2 off the list.
  11. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    02 May '08 20:05
    Originally posted by Jirakon
    3. Queen takes c1, promoted pawn takes f1.
    Using the count from the previous scheme, we can start with 8.Qa1.

    The rest goes 8...Q~ 9.Kd1 a5 10.Kc1 a4 11.Kb1 a3 12.Ka2 13.Kb3 a2 14...a1Q(or R) 15...Qxf1 16.Ka2 Qa1+ [to get wK back in as fast as possible, and avoid 16..Qxh1?? which does nothing to help White get home faster; it only wastes time for Black] 17.Rxa1 18.Kb1-c1-d1 21.Ke1 Qxa1#

    Item 3 has passed the sequence analysis test. Next, we count the minimum moves for each side to achieve the scheme. [This is similar to the usual starting method for easier PG's.]

    Black:
    7 Qd6-a3-a1xc1-a1-a5-a1 [for the moment, we will not add moves to get out of of Pa7's way]
    7 a7 promotes, then xf1-b1
    2 Ra6-h6
    2 Bc5-d4
    1 Bd7
    2 d5, e6
    ---
    21 moves

    All Black's moves are used up, and there is no way to get Pa7 past bQa5 [she must sit there to let wK have b3].

    Cross Item #3 off the list.
  12. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    08 May '08 18:42
    Originally posted by Jirakon
    4. Promoted pawn takes both bishops
    Let's break this down into two schemes.
    1) Promoted N takes both Bishops.
    2) Promoted Q/R takes both Bishops.

    For scheme 1), if I take c1 first...
    5...a1N 7...Nxc1 12...Nxf1 + 3 moves for Qa1 + 7 moves for 'other' pieces = 22 moves.
    If I take f1 first...
    5...ab1N 9...Nxf1 14...Nxc1 is even slower than the previous try.

    Scheme 2):
    5...a1R 6...Rxc1 8...Ra5 9.Qa1 14.Kb3 Ra1 15...Rxf1 16.Ka2 Ra1+ 17.Rxa1 21.Ke1 is fast enough. Now, count all of Black's moves:
    5 a1=R
    6 promoted R moves
    3 Qa1
    7 other pieces
    ---
    21 moves

    However, after 8...Ra5, white must immediately play 9.Qa1, and neither side has the time to shield the bRa5 so that wK can have a2.

    Cross item 4 off the list.
  13. Joined
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    09 May '08 18:14
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Let's break this down into two schemes.
    1) Promoted N takes both Bishops.
    2) Promoted Q/R takes both Bishops.

    For scheme 1), if I take c1 first...
    5...a1N 7...Nxc1 12...Nxf1 + 3 moves for Qa1 + 7 moves for 'other' pieces = 22 moves.
    If I take f1 first...
    5...ab1N 9...Nxf1 14...Nxc1 is even slower than the previous try.

    Scheme 2):
    5...a1R 6... ...[text shortened]... r side has the time to shield the bRa5 so that wK can have a2.

    Cross item 4 off the list.
    It says something about your skill that no-one is interrupting. 🙂
  14. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    09 May '08 18:34
    Originally posted by curseknight
    It says something about your skill that no-one is interrupting. 🙂
    I'm afraid it says more about the level of interest in this problem 😕
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    09 May '08 21:341 edit
    Originally posted by Jirakon
    5. Promoted pawn takes c1, queen takes f1.
    5...a1R 6...Rxc1 7...Rxd1+ 8.Kxd1 12.Kb3 Qa1 13...Qxf1 14...Qa1 15...Qa5 16.Ra1 Ba3 17.Ka2 21.Ke1 Qxa1# - the sequence is fast enough.

    Black's moves: 7 for Pa7, 7 for Qd8, 3 for Bd4, 5 for other pieces = 22 total moves. Bust!

    Edit: I crossed Item #5 off the list too soon. I cannot just assume the promoted piece that takes c1 gets captured. Maybe it's still on the board. More next post....
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