interesting position

Had this one in a blitz game the other day:



I moved 18. f3 in this position expecting this variation: 18.. Nd4 (Black's rook is not protected anymore) 19. Qg5+ Kf8 20. Qg7+ Ke8 21. Qg8+ Kd7 22. Qxd8+ Kc6 23. Kf2. Thought this plan was safe. However Black can win in a nice way then.
1) How?
2) What was the correct move instead of 18. f3 to secure the win for White?

Originally posted by crazyblue
Had this one in a blitz game the other day:

[fen]1rbr2k1/1p3p1p/p1np1B2/4p2Q/2q1P3/8/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQ - 0 18[/fen]

I moved 18. f3 in this position expecting this variation: 18.. Nd4 (Black's rook is not protected anymore) 19. Qg5+ Kf8 20. Qg7+ Ke8 21. Qg8+ Kd7 22. Qxd8+ Kc6 23. Kf2. Thought this plan was safe. However Black can win in a nice way then.
1) How?
2) What was the correct move instead of 18. f3 to secure the win for White?

1) Bh3!
White's best chance after the 16.f3 Nd4 was to play immediately Kf2.

2) 0-0-0 wins easily

Unless you plugged this position into a program I don't know how you could confidently make that deduction: 1. 0-0-0... black has a minor piece for a pawn so I don't see why they can't just step their king to f8. Black might be a little worse but it's still a fighting game. My guess would be that white has something a little more decisive. Still looking though...

Originally posted by artplayer
Unless you plugged this position into a program I don't know how you could confidently make that deduction: 1. 0-0-0... black has a minor piece for a pawn so I don't see why they can't just step their king to f8. Black might be a little worse but it's still a fighting game. My guess would be that white has something a little more decisive. Still looking though...

I would like to know how Black puts up any kind of fight after 19.Qxh7. Show me the miracle defense!

Originally posted by artplayer
Unless you plugged this position into a program I don't know how you could confidently make that deduction: 1. 0-0-0... black has a minor piece for a pawn so I don't see why they can't just step their king to f8. Black might be a little worse but it's still a fighting game. My guess would be that white has something a little more decisive. Still looking though...h

Do you really think this is 'beyond human' to see that white can 'dismantle' black's kingside position? Use a board and try this:
1.0-0-0 Kf8 (not black's only move!) 2.Qxh7 threatens mate Ke8 3.Kh8+ Kd7 4.Bxd8 Nxd8 5.Rxd6+ Kxd6 6.Rd1+ Kc6 7.Qxe5 and black can't save the rook (Ra8? runs mate after Rd6+), leaving him with an unsafe king and two minor pieces against rook + 4 clean pawns.

I doubt that there is a more 'decisive' winnning path for white. His king is in the open, and his 2 rooks still not in play. A more direct 1.Qg5+ Kf8 seems to lead nowhere. And 1.Bxd8 Qxe4+ 2.Kf1 Bf5 (threatening the bishop) 3.Bc7 Bg6! looks very unclear.

alright.... so suppose the line is 18. 0-0-0 Kf8 19. Qxh7. Black is forced to play 19. Ke8 as the alternative defense, Ne7, looks perilous. From here though I don't see where white has any substantial evidence of a win. As I said white might be a little better, but it definately looks like black has some fighting chances. The f7 pawn is pretty solid, and black has an open c file and two minor pieces for a rook and two pawns, assuming white trades off the bishop for the rook. Is there a line you're thinking of SwissGambit which leads to a clear win? As far as I can tell there isn't one.

Originally posted by artplayer
alright.... so suppose the line is 18. 0-0-0 Kf8 19. Qxh7. Black is forced to play 19. Ke8 as the alternative defense, Ne7, looks perilous. From here though I don't see where white has any substantial evidence of a win. As I said white might be a little better, but it definately looks like black has some fighting chances. The f7 pawn is pretty solid, and b ...[text shortened]... 're thinking of SwissGambit which leads to a clear win? As far as I can tell there isn't one.

Did you play through the complete line (or found stronger defense for black) I gave above? If yes, isn't the end position a clear enough win?

To answer your question I don't think it's beyond human ability to find the line you suggested. I probably should have looked into the position further, 23. rxd6+ has a sharp edge on it. I wasn't sure there was a clear line, 23. rxd6 is getting there, but it still looks kind of interesting... 23. Kxd6 24. re1+ Qd4 25. rxd4+ e5xd4 which is still pretty rough for black, but it's not immediately lost is it? Another line is 23. Kxd6 24. re1+ Ke6 25. Qe8+ Kf6 26. Qxd8+ Kg6 27. re6+ Ka5. What do you think? At this point I would prob agree that 18. 0-0-0 is crazyblue's solution, because it looks the most promising, but even so, it seems like there might be a possible refutation.

Originally posted by artplayer
To answer your question I don't think it's beyond human ability to find the line you suggested. I probably should have looked into the position further, 23. rxd6+ has a sharp edge on it. I wasn't sure there was a clear line, 23. rxd6 is getting there, but it still looks kind of interesting... 23. Kxd6 24. re1+ Qd4 25. rxd4+ e5xd4 which is still pretty roug ...[text shortened]... looks the most promising, but even so, it seems like there might be a possible refutation.

Both lines you give are straight winning lines for white. Therefor, I think that black has nothing better than what I suggested 24.Rd1+ (some typo's in your text there) Kc6 etc... leading to a position that convinced me of clear white win.

Perhaps one should consider more carefully the 18.0-0-0 Qxe4 (instead of Kf8) line, although 19.Qg5+ Qg6 20.Bxd8 looks winning for white, be it through an endgame which still has to be played out. White has the exchange and a better pawn structure. One follow on could be 20. ... Be6 21.Rxd6 Nxd8 22.Rxd8+ Rxd8 23.Qxd8+ Kg7 24.g3 must be winning for white.

what's the winning line with the king on h5?

Originally posted by artplayer
what's the winning line with the king on h5?n

I assume you refer to the line in your post (3 typo's corrected):
23. Kxd6 24.rd1+ Ke6 25.Qe8+ Kf6 26.Qxd8+ Kg6 27.rd6+ Kh5

First of all, I think that 27.Qd6+ is better than Rd6+. Could follow: 27.Qd6+ Be6 28.Qxb8 Qxe4 29.Qg8+ and wins with the exchange and extra healthy pawns.

After 27.Rd6+ black can play better than Kh5 and go to a line similar as above (and still lose of course) with Be6 28.Qxb8 Qxe4 29.Qg8+ etc.

Now back to your question: 27.Rd6+ Kh5 is punished with 28.Qh8+ Kg5 29.Qh6+ Kg4 30.h3# or 28. ... Kg4 29.f3+ Kf4 30.Qh6# But you should have seen that yourself, no?

I think Mephisto's lines are all correct. 🙂

🙂

Qg5 wins the game

Originally posted by Massimo777
Qg5 wins the game

🙄