Posers and Puzzles

Posers and Puzzles

  1. Joined
    29 Apr '05
    Moves
    827
    21 May '07 12:52
    Had this one in a blitz game the other day:



    I moved 18. f3 in this position expecting this variation: 18.. Nd4 (Black's rook is not protected anymore) 19. Qg5+ Kf8 20. Qg7+ Ke8 21. Qg8+ Kd7 22. Qxd8+ Kc6 23. Kf2. Thought this plan was safe. However Black can win in a nice way then.
    1) How?
    2) What was the correct move instead of 18. f3 to secure the win for White?
  2. Joined
    12 Mar '03
    Moves
    37893
    21 May '07 13:23
    Originally posted by crazyblue
    Had this one in a blitz game the other day:

    [fen]1rbr2k1/1p3p1p/p1np1B2/4p2Q/2q1P3/8/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQ - 0 18[/fen]

    I moved 18. f3 in this position expecting this variation: 18.. Nd4 (Black's rook is not protected anymore) 19. Qg5+ Kf8 20. Qg7+ Ke8 21. Qg8+ Kd7 22. Qxd8+ Kc6 23. Kf2. Thought this plan was safe. However Black can win in a nice way then.
    1) How?
    2) What was the correct move instead of 18. f3 to secure the win for White?
    1) Bh3!
    White's best chance after the 16.f3 Nd4 was to play immediately Kf2.

    2) 0-0-0 wins easily
  3. Joined
    17 Dec '06
    Moves
    8208
    22 May '07 00:131 edit
    Unless you plugged this position into a program I don't know how you could confidently make that deduction: 1. 0-0-0... black has a minor piece for a pawn so I don't see why they can't just step their king to f8. Black might be a little worse but it's still a fighting game. My guess would be that white has something a little more decisive. Still looking though...
  4. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
    Joined
    11 Apr '07
    Moves
    92274
    22 May '07 06:51
    Originally posted by artplayer
    Unless you plugged this position into a program I don't know how you could confidently make that deduction: 1. 0-0-0... black has a minor piece for a pawn so I don't see why they can't just step their king to f8. Black might be a little worse but it's still a fighting game. My guess would be that white has something a little more decisive. Still looking though...
    I would like to know how Black puts up any kind of fight after 19.Qxh7. Show me the miracle defense!
  5. Joined
    12 Mar '03
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    37893
    22 May '07 06:55
    Originally posted by artplayer
    Unless you plugged this position into a program I don't know how you could confidently make that deduction: 1. 0-0-0... black has a minor piece for a pawn so I don't see why they can't just step their king to f8. Black might be a little worse but it's still a fighting game. My guess would be that white has something a little more decisive. Still looking though...h
    Do you really think this is 'beyond human' to see that white can 'dismantle' black's kingside position? Use a board and try this:
    1.0-0-0 Kf8 (not black's only move!) 2.Qxh7 threatens mate Ke8 3.Kh8+ Kd7 4.Bxd8 Nxd8 5.Rxd6+ Kxd6 6.Rd1+ Kc6 7.Qxe5 and black can't save the rook (Ra8? runs mate after Rd6+), leaving him with an unsafe king and two minor pieces against rook + 4 clean pawns.

    I doubt that there is a more 'decisive' winnning path for white. His king is in the open, and his 2 rooks still not in play. A more direct 1.Qg5+ Kf8 seems to lead nowhere. And 1.Bxd8 Qxe4+ 2.Kf1 Bf5 (threatening the bishop) 3.Bc7 Bg6! looks very unclear.
  6. Joined
    17 Dec '06
    Moves
    8208
    22 May '07 07:10
    alright.... so suppose the line is 18. 0-0-0 Kf8 19. Qxh7. Black is forced to play 19. Ke8 as the alternative defense, Ne7, looks perilous. From here though I don't see where white has any substantial evidence of a win. As I said white might be a little better, but it definately looks like black has some fighting chances. The f7 pawn is pretty solid, and black has an open c file and two minor pieces for a rook and two pawns, assuming white trades off the bishop for the rook. Is there a line you're thinking of SwissGambit which leads to a clear win? As far as I can tell there isn't one.
  7. Joined
    12 Mar '03
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    37893
    22 May '07 07:13
    Originally posted by artplayer
    alright.... so suppose the line is 18. 0-0-0 Kf8 19. Qxh7. Black is forced to play 19. Ke8 as the alternative defense, Ne7, looks perilous. From here though I don't see where white has any substantial evidence of a win. As I said white might be a little better, but it definately looks like black has some fighting chances. The f7 pawn is pretty solid, and b ...[text shortened]... 're thinking of SwissGambit which leads to a clear win? As far as I can tell there isn't one.
    Did you play through the complete line (or found stronger defense for black) I gave above? If yes, isn't the end position a clear enough win?
  8. Joined
    17 Dec '06
    Moves
    8208
    22 May '07 15:00
    To answer your question I don't think it's beyond human ability to find the line you suggested. I probably should have looked into the position further, 23. rxd6+ has a sharp edge on it. I wasn't sure there was a clear line, 23. rxd6 is getting there, but it still looks kind of interesting... 23. Kxd6 24. re1+ Qd4 25. rxd4+ e5xd4 which is still pretty rough for black, but it's not immediately lost is it? Another line is 23. Kxd6 24. re1+ Ke6 25. Qe8+ Kf6 26. Qxd8+ Kg6 27. re6+ Ka5. What do you think? At this point I would prob agree that 18. 0-0-0 is crazyblue's solution, because it looks the most promising, but even so, it seems like there might be a possible refutation.
  9. Joined
    12 Mar '03
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    37893
    22 May '07 15:27
    Originally posted by artplayer
    To answer your question I don't think it's beyond human ability to find the line you suggested. I probably should have looked into the position further, 23. rxd6+ has a sharp edge on it. I wasn't sure there was a clear line, 23. rxd6 is getting there, but it still looks kind of interesting... 23. Kxd6 24. re1+ Qd4 25. rxd4+ e5xd4 which is still pretty roug ...[text shortened]... looks the most promising, but even so, it seems like there might be a possible refutation.
    Both lines you give are straight winning lines for white. Therefor, I think that black has nothing better than what I suggested 24.Rd1+ (some typo's in your text there) Kc6 etc... leading to a position that convinced me of clear white win.

    Perhaps one should consider more carefully the 18.0-0-0 Qxe4 (instead of Kf8) line, although 19.Qg5+ Qg6 20.Bxd8 looks winning for white, be it through an endgame which still has to be played out. White has the exchange and a better pawn structure. One follow on could be 20. ... Be6 21.Rxd6 Nxd8 22.Rxd8+ Rxd8 23.Qxd8+ Kg7 24.g3 must be winning for white.
  10. Joined
    17 Dec '06
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    8208
    22 May '07 23:48
    what's the winning line with the king on h5?
  11. Joined
    12 Mar '03
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    37893
    23 May '07 12:10
    Originally posted by artplayer
    what's the winning line with the king on h5?n
    I assume you refer to the line in your post (3 typo's corrected):
    23. Kxd6 24.rd1+ Ke6 25.Qe8+ Kf6 26.Qxd8+ Kg6 27.rd6+ Kh5

    First of all, I think that 27.Qd6+ is better than Rd6+. Could follow: 27.Qd6+ Be6 28.Qxb8 Qxe4 29.Qg8+ and wins with the exchange and extra healthy pawns.

    After 27.Rd6+ black can play better than Kh5 and go to a line similar as above (and still lose of course) with Be6 28.Qxb8 Qxe4 29.Qg8+ etc.

    Now back to your question: 27.Rd6+ Kh5 is punished with 28.Qh8+ Kg5 29.Qh6+ Kg4 30.h3# or 28. ... Kg4 29.f3+ Kf4 30.Qh6# But you should have seen that yourself, no?
  12. Joined
    29 Apr '05
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    827
    23 May '07 14:36
    I think Mephisto's lines are all correct. 🙂
  13. Joined
    17 Dec '06
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    8208
    23 May '07 23:02
    🙂
  14. Account suspended
    Joined
    14 May '07
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    7122
    24 May '07 21:33
    Qg5 wins the game
  15. Joined
    29 Apr '05
    Moves
    827
    24 May '07 23:10
    Originally posted by Massimo777
    Qg5 wins the game
    🙄
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