1. Standard membersmw6869
    Granny
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    29 Oct '07 15:28
    I go to an apple store and order minus five apples. The store owner hands me a bag of something and i go home. I open the bag and dump out the contents. What comes out of the bag? If it's nothing, shouldn't the apple guy have to refund my money or should he have paid ME for the minus apples, and why didn't i order 100 minus apples thereby making it a capitalist's dream?

    Granny
  2. Joined
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    29 Oct '07 17:47
    He should have paid you, but you lost five apples in the process...
  3. Joined
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    29 Oct '07 18:03
    A number of apples is always positive. There exists no such thing as negative amount of apples, not even zero apples.

    Any attempt ot use negative amount of apples is beyond the real world and should be treated as abstract mathematics.
  4. Standard memberwolfgang59
    howling mad
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    29 Oct '07 18:51
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    A number of apples is always positive. There exists no such thing as negative amount of apples, not even zero apples.

    Any attempt ot use negative amount of apples is beyond the real world and should be treated as abstract mathematics.
    Fabian PLEASE get in touch with my bank .. they tell me I have banked a negative amount of money with them!!
  5. Joined
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    29 Oct '07 20:36
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Fabian PLEASE get in touch with my bank .. they tell me I have banked a negative amount of money with them!!
    Highly abstract, negative coins.

    In fact, it was the bank people once who invented negative numbers, only to deal with loaned money. In Venezia at the 15th centuray, I think.
  6. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    All My Soldiers...
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    30 Oct '07 05:312 edits
    Originally posted by smw6869
    I go to an apple store and order minus five apples. The store owner hands me a bag of something and i go home. I open the bag and dump out the contents. What comes out of the bag? If it's nothing, shouldn't the apple guy have to refund my money or should he have paid ME for the minus apples, and why didn't i order 100 minus apples thereby making it a capitalist's dream?

    Granny
    It's a bag of money.

    No - it's empty. He's waiting for you to bring him the apples. The bag is so you can bring the apples back with you.
  7. Standard memberTheMaster37
    Kupikupopo!
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    30 Oct '07 08:57
    The minus sign is usually used to indicate a direction opposite to the normal one.

    When you buy apples, the apples go from the store to you and the money form you to the store.

    Buying negative apples would indicate apples going from you to the store and the money from the store to you. In other words, selling apples.

    Bank people inventing negative numbers? Possible, but I think it more likely that mathematicians needed negative to get inverses under addition.
  8. Joined
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    30 Oct '07 09:52
    Originally posted by TheMaster37
    Bank people inventing negative numbers? Possible, but I think it more likely that mathematicians needed negative to get inverses under addition.
    From the beginning not even the mathematicians didn't like negative numbers. Some didn't even accept the existence of them. They thought of negative numbers as positive with a certain property only. "Negative number of apples? Rubbish!"

    Even the bankers and economists didn't like negative numbers, therefore we have something, even today, that is called 'double Italian book-keeping. Instead of counting with negative numbers they summed the positive amounts separately and called it debit, and summed the negative amounts and called it credit. No need for the minus sign. Then debit and credit should be equal, if not ... you know.

    The invention of negative numbers is a great leap forward, beginning with the economists and bankers, followed by mathematicians who gave a mathematical study of them.
  9. Joined
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    30 Oct '07 10:02
    Originally posted by TheMaster37
    Bank people inventing negative numbers? Possible, but I think it more likely that mathematicians needed negative to get inverses under addition.
    That level of formality in maths wasn't invented until later.

    Although according to Wikipedia, the concept of negative numbers had existed quite a long time in the East before western bankers started using them. Again, often for representing debts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_numbers
  10. Joined
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    30 Oct '07 10:02
    Originally posted by mtthw
    That level of formality in maths wasn't required until later.

    Although according to Wikipedia, the concept of negative numbers had existed quite a long time in the East before western bankers started using them. Again, often for representing debts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_numbers
  11. Standard membersmw6869
    Granny
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    30 Oct '07 17:08
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    It's a bag of money.

    No - it's empty. He's waiting for you to bring him the apples. The bag is so you can bring the apples back with you.
    Let's get down to the nitty gritty. Can Granny, somehow, use this negative stuff to screw the store owner and get Free money for myself. Then i wouldn't have to work. Oh! isn't that what bankers do every day?

    Granny
  12. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    All My Soldiers...
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    02 Nov '07 02:44
    Originally posted by smw6869
    Let's get down to the nitty gritty. Can Granny, somehow, use this negative stuff to screw the store owner and get Free money for myself. Then i wouldn't have to work. Oh! isn't that what bankers do every day?

    Granny
    Sort of. It's called not paying your credit card bill.
  13. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    02 Nov '07 14:49
    Originally posted by smw6869
    I go to an apple store and order minus five apples. The store owner hands me a bag of something and i go home. I open the bag and dump out the contents. What comes out of the bag? If it's nothing, shouldn't the apple guy have to refund my money or should he have paid ME for the minus apples, and why didn't i order 100 minus apples thereby making it a capitalist's dream?

    Granny
    So you sold him 5 apples and he put the moolah in the bag, what's the big deal about that? You didn't order a minus 100 apples because you only had 5 total.
  14. Joined
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    02 Nov '07 15:25
    Originally posted by smw6869
    I go to an apple store and order minus five apples. The store owner hands me a bag of something and i go home. I open the bag and dump out the contents. What comes out of the bag? If it's nothing, shouldn't the apple guy have to refund my money or should he have paid ME for the minus apples, and why didn't i order 100 minus apples thereby making it a capitalist's dream?

    Granny
    How much did you pay for these minus five apples? Minus 2 dollars?
  15. Standard membersmw6869
    Granny
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    02 Nov '07 16:05
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So you sold him 5 apples and he put the moolah in the bag, what's the big deal about that? You didn't order a minus 100 apples because you only had 5 total.
    The problem is that i didn't have 5 apples to sell.

    G.
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