# Mirrored moves

Thequ1ck
Posers and Puzzles 01 Feb '09 06:34
1. Thequ1ck
Fast above
01 Feb '09 06:34
What would happen if you set up an even number of black plays
white moves on this site and mirrored moves against people so
that they would in effect be playing each other?

It's not in violation of the RHP rules but would your rating increase
or decrease?
2. forkedknight
Defend the Universe
01 Feb '09 06:59
I would guess if you matched two games against players with much higher ratings than you, your rating would increase, because you're guaranteed to win one of the games.

Are you sure it's not against the rules? You would, in effect, be getting help from another player.
3. Thequ1ck
Fast above
01 Feb '09 07:25
Originally posted by forkedknight
I would guess if you matched two games against players with much higher ratings than you, your rating would increase, because you're guaranteed to win one of the games.

Are you sure it's not against the rules? You would, in effect, be getting help from another player.
If you don't know who's going to win, how can it be help?
4. 01 Feb '09 07:33
Originally posted by Thequ1ck
If you don't know who's going to win, how can it be help?
It's like getting hints from a GM friend.
You don't know *how* this will lead to a win, but it certanly *will*.
5. Thequ1ck
Fast above
01 Feb '09 08:121 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnas
It's like getting hints from a GM friend.
You don't know *how* this will lead to a win, but it certanly *will*.
But you're actually hoping the GM or in this case higher rated player
would lose so you get more points.

Is it in the rules that your not allowed help to lose?
6. forkedknight
Defend the Universe
01 Feb '09 16:48
Originally posted by Thequ1ck
But you're actually hoping the GM or in this case higher rated player
would lose so you get more points.

Is it in the rules that your not allowed help to lose?
The simple fact is that you're not playing for yourself. The fact that an exploit like this could be used to falsely increase your rating means that it would be cheating, at the very least from an ethical standpoint.

It is, however, quite a clever and interesting idea.
7. SwissGambit
Caninus Interruptus
01 Feb '09 19:57
Originally posted by Thequ1ck
What would happen if you set up an even number of black plays
white moves on this site and mirrored moves against people so
that they would in effect be playing each other?

It's not in violation of the RHP rules

<SNIP>
Yes, it is a violation. 3rd-party assistance is not allowed.
8. Thequ1ck
Fast above
02 Feb '09 12:01
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Yes, it is a violation. 3rd-party assistance is not allowed.
So does that mean that it is not allowed to copy another persons opening?
9. forkedknight
Defend the Universe
02 Feb '09 15:51
Originally posted by Thequ1ck
So does that mean that it is not allowed to copy another persons opening?
No, you can memorize as many moves as you wish. It's assistance during the game that is prohibited.
10. SwissGambit
Caninus Interruptus
02 Feb '09 18:16
Originally posted by Thequ1ck
So does that mean that it is not allowed to copy another persons opening?
Good question. Here's my interpretation.

If you have to wait for the other player to move so you can copy his move, then yes.

If the other game is already out of the opening, then maybe. It is still possible to get hints that are tailor-made to your specific position. To play it safe: look up the opening in a book or database, and follow that instead. Books/DBs are legal here.

If the other game is finished, then no.
11. Thequ1ck
Fast above
02 Feb '09 18:592 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Good question. Here's my interpretation.

If you have to wait for the other player to move so you can copy his move, then yes.

If the other game is already out of the opening, then maybe. It is still possible to get hints that are tailor-made to your specific position. To play it safe: look up the opening in a book or database, and follow that instead. Books/DBs are legal here.

If the other game is finished, then no.
Say for example you are 5 moves in against white and he/she does a move
that puts you in real trouble, must you then play a different move against black?

Even if you weren't planning on mirroring, must you then forfeit the game?

I understand that this rule is really a guidline but what happens in tournaments
with set openings? Isn't this situation then likely to occur?
12. SwissGambit
Caninus Interruptus
02 Feb '09 19:42
Originally posted by Thequ1ck
Say for example you are 5 moves in against white and he/she does a move
that puts you in real trouble, must you then play a different move against black?

Even if you weren't planning on mirroring, must you then forfeit the game?

I understand that this rule is really a guidline but what happens in tournaments
with set openings? Isn't this situation then likely to occur?

The penalty for using 3rd party assistance or engines is site banishment, not just forfeiture of games. You're probably not going to get banned if it turns out to be a 'book' opening, since books are legal. However, it will look very suspicious if they can read the times the moves were made and observe that you always move [the same move] right after the other player.

Yes, this is fairly likely to happen in thematic tourneys.
13. Thequ1ck
Fast above
02 Feb '09 21:201 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambit

The penalty for using 3rd party assistance or engines is site banishment, not just forfeiture of games. You're probably not going to get banned if it turns out to be a 'book' opening, since books are legal. However, it will look very suspicious if they can read the times the moves were made and observe that you alway ...[text shortened]... ] right after the other player.

Yes, this is fairly likely to happen in thematic tourneys.
OK, first scenario aside as it's ridiculously hypothetical.

Surely in thematic tourneys you are influenced by the games you are playing
and may choose to play a series of similar games so that you can make move
variations. Why should you deserve a ban for setting up a board in a particular
position to explore the options thereafter?
At what point does it change from setting up the board to trying to win?

Is it when it becomes a conscious decision or a realisation that you're winning/losing?
Isn't that just being unfair on the people that don't realise they're doing it?
14. SwissGambit
Caninus Interruptus
02 Feb '09 22:47
Originally posted by Thequ1ck
OK, first scenario aside as it's ridiculously hypothetical.

Surely in thematic tourneys you are influenced by the games you are playing
and may choose to play a series of similar games so that you can make move
variations. Why should you deserve a ban for setting up a board in a particular
position to explore the options thereafter?
At what point doe ...[text shortened]... g/losing?
Isn't that just being unfair on the people that don't realise they're doing it?
I think any ban of this nature must be a judgment call based on available evidence.

Continuing to copy moves in the middlegame is a dead giveaway.

I'm unclear how someone could do this without realizing they're doing it.
15. Thequ1ck
Fast above
03 Feb '09 10:37
Originally posted by SwissGambit
I think any ban of this nature must be a judgment call based on available evidence.

Continuing to copy moves in the middlegame is a dead giveaway.

I'm unclear how someone could do this without realizing they're doing it.
I agree but it would be interesting to keep the situation on record to refer to
should a person be banned for receiving third party assistance.
If it can be said it is reasonable to make a series of moves influenced by other players
in real time without it being considered cheating.

re: Not knowing what they're doing. I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about!