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Posers and Puzzles

Posers and Puzzles

  1. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    09 Jun '07 04:23
    This would be an incredible find if proven, here is the link:
    http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12026-mars-rover-finds-puddles-on-the-planets-surface.html
  2. Standard member irontigran
    Rob Scheider is..
    09 Jun '07 06:04
    that means there could be life, correct?
  3. Standard member irontigran
    Rob Scheider is..
    09 Jun '07 06:04
    or once life, i mean...anything else this could impact??
  4. Standard member EinsteinMind
    Seeker
    09 Jun '07 11:31
    Of course that water might be CO2 ridden. The predominant source of water on Mars is its so called "ice cap" up top of Mars. This is a sheet of CO2 (s) (aka dry ice) covering a sheet of frozen water. Now according to a friend of mine, the pressure build underneath this CO2 layer and it eventually explodes like a volcano-like...idk...because the pressure is too great. this gets rid of the carbon dioxide layer and allows the water layer to be exposed to the air. Then, some of that water could melt and therefore form liquid water.
  5. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    09 Jun '07 13:02
    Originally posted by EinsteinMind
    Of course that water might be CO2 ridden. The predominant source of water on Mars is its so called "ice cap" up top of Mars. This is a sheet of CO2 (s) (aka dry ice) covering a sheet of frozen water. Now according to a friend of mine, the pressure build underneath this CO2 layer and it eventually explodes like a volcano-like...idk...because the pressure ...[text shortened]... to be exposed to the air. Then, some of that water could melt and therefore form liquid water.
    It seems to be only a couple of miles from one of the rovers so they may be able to get it there for a closer look, drill into it like they said, if no change in the image, it's open water or brine. It would mean life would be much more possible.
  6. Standard member agryson
    AGW Hitman
    09 Jun '07 20:40
    the other possibility is that disturbing the supersaturated atmosphere above pool would force it to freeze instantly or to sublime instantly, so even if it IS liquid water, disturbing the pool could still lead to a non-result. Or in the case of instant sublimation, a cool disappearing act!
  7. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    10 Jun '07 00:09
    Originally posted by agryson
    the other possibility is that disturbing the supersaturated atmosphere above pool would force it to freeze instantly or to sublime instantly, so even if it IS liquid water, disturbing the pool could still lead to a non-result. Or in the case of instant sublimation, a cool disappearing act!
    Well the camera onboard should show something if it sublimates. It sure will show something if it turns out to be just fresh ice also when the digger scraps into it. Even if it's ice that would be a tremendous discovery don't you think?
  8. Standard member agryson
    AGW Hitman
    10 Jun '07 08:49
    They'd have to have the equipment on board the rover to differentiate between water ice and CO2 ice (dry ice). and from the article it seems that the camera can't see where it puts the drill. they refer to drilling it, 'then' seeing if it had an effect. I'm certain something will happen, but if it becomes 'inconclusive' I just wouldn't see it as definite proof that it wasn't water.
    A perfectly flat, bluish transparent surface occupying the lowest points of a topographical area and the surface being at a constant and precisely the same altitude is good enough evidence for me given that it can't be CO2 and that we already have evidence of high levels of groundwater in some form all over the planet.
  9. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    15 Jun '07 19:19
    Originally posted by agryson
    They'd have to have the equipment on board the rover to differentiate between water ice and CO2 ice (dry ice). and from the article it seems that the camera can't see where it puts the drill. they refer to drilling it, 'then' seeing if it had an effect. I'm certain something will happen, but if it becomes 'inconclusive' I just wouldn't see it as definite pro ...[text shortened]... already have evidence of high levels of groundwater in some form all over the planet.
    Yep. What I wonder is, if it is ice, why doesn't it sublimate and dissapear, not much atmosphere, like earth at 100,000 feet.
  10. Standard member agryson
    AGW Hitman
    15 Jun '07 20:34
    The article mentions that it's possibly a microclimate thing. The picture was taken inside a crater (though I can't find it on google mars, if anyone has the coordinates, please post them) If the 'air' is still enough, you can get a 'super critical' solution, where the liquid can exist far beyond its freezing or boiling point as a liquid, but the slightest disruption causes it to instantly crystallise or sublime. The otehr possibility is that there is a layer of sublimed water vapour above that's dense enought o overcome the vapour pressure under those conditions which is almost as fragile since any disturbance of this layer allows sublimation again.
  11. 15 Jun '07 20:59
    I would really like they found real and living life on Mars! The result would turn religion and philosophy upside down!

    If Martian life were based on DNA, the same as ours, then probability is high that Earthly and Martial life has common ancestors. From where? From neither Mars nor Earth? Or is spontaneously travel between the two planets. In this case, where did the life evolve first, Mars or Earth?

    Or if Martial life is different from our DNA based life, then life began on both planets with no interaction between them. If this is true, then a lot of planets can have life. All over the Galaxy we can expect to find life.

    And if so, the probability is big, really big, that there are other intelligent civilizations and/or technological civilizations all over Universe.

    So even a little tiny speck of life at our next door planet changes our view on life and its evolution completely!
  12. Standard member EinsteinMind
    Seeker
    15 Jun '07 21:07
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I would really like they found real and living life on Mars! The result would turn religion and philosophy upside down!

    If Martian life were based on DNA, the same as ours, then probability is high that Earthly and Martial life has common ancestors. From where? From neither Mars nor Earth? Or is spontaneously travel between the two planets. In this cas ...[text shortened]... iny speck of life at our next door planet changes our view on life and its evolution completely!
    But what do you think the likelihood is of finding the same sort or type of DNA that humans have on Mars (or any life for that matter) (extremophiles excluded)? I realize that it might have been habitable at one time, but at what time? It would have had to have been a long time ago, and if humans started on Mars, then why does the current evolutionary scheme have them starting on Earth? that means all of evolutionary ideas ever thought will have to be realigned. Plus, the evolutionary timeline states that humans did not evolve that fast, fast enough to make a habitat on mars and send people to Earth. If any evolutionary concepts are correct, it is the fact that at least both planets would have had to support life at one time, but mars could not support it long enough to stay habitable.

    That's just my opinion.

    (If I got any facts about evolution wrong, please feel free to correct as much as you want.)
  13. Standard member agryson
    AGW Hitman
    15 Jun '07 22:13
    the theory of 'panspermia' (life travelling between planets) does not rely on intelligent beings sending that life. Enormous amounts of martian rock (comparatively) have reached earth with no intelligent intervention. Also, even if their genetic coding was of an entirely different structure to our DNA, that does not preclude a common ancestry, provided the panspermic event occured prior to complex genetics. Simple self replicating molecules, while not technically life, make good seeds for evolution to start off independantly, the only common ground being the basic chemistry. (carbon)
    In my personal assessment, the odds point to some form of life or significant precursor chemicals having existed on Mars, and at least some of this having gotten here. Whether that led to anything is guesswork at this stage, but see this...
    http://www.calpoly.edu/~rfrankel/mtbcalpoly.html
    The second paragraph notes the ferromagnetic nano-particles these bacteria grow within themselves. Analysis of martian meteorites has revealed the presence of such nanoparticles with the exact same crystal structure and size, which is very difficult to arrive at by non-biological means (though it is a possibility). Like I said, it's not proof, but there's more and more coincidences such as this occuring every year.
    Just something to think about.
  14. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    16 Jun '07 10:28 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by agryson
    the theory of 'panspermia' (life travelling between planets) does not rely on intelligent beings sending that life. Enormous amounts of martian rock (comparatively) have reached earth with no intelligent intervention. Also, even if their genetic coding was of an entirely different structure to our DNA, that does not preclude a common ancestry, provided the p more and more coincidences such as this occuring every year.
    Just something to think about.
    Personally I have been waiting around breathlessly for the rovers to go over some hill and find a big thigh bone sticking out of a cliff or something but no such luck yet.
    The Panspermia idea might be much more general that just life forms surviving the trip between planets. Hoyle posited the idea of life coming into the solar system from its start in giant molecular clouds between stars or in nebulae. If that were the case, any life found anywhere in the solar system could be related and have a DNA/RNA kind of base and the further implication of that being if we ever actually get to other stars, like Alpha Centauri or that Gilese planet, the same cloud could have seeded ALL of those solar systems with the same kind of life and at least bacteria could be around in extremafiles with similar DNA stuff anywhere within a hundred light years. If that were to be the case, what implications would it make for religious discourse?
    Personally I would hope it would give religion a death knell but that would be too much to ask, they can rationalize anything away with a wave of the bible or Quran.
    If the microclime idea is true, the rover mucking about in that environment could cause the water to fully evaporate by disturbing that area with its drills and so forth.
  15. 16 Jun '07 12:53
    If Martian life is not of DNA type, I don't think we would recognize it even if we had it under our nose.

    This so called fossil bacteria found in meteroites, found at Antarctica, is very likely to be noting of the kind as life. This findings are very much disputed, and is in no way certain of what it can be.