Funding for Homeopathy withdrawn

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Who is to blame? They who charge or they who pay? Both are of free will, are they not?

Isn't that a bit like asking who is to blame, the con man or the victim of the con?

I say it's the con man. The person deceiving the other person to believe what they are doing is something it isn't is to blame.

Yet thousands of people go away happy after such sessions. Go figure. It's been going on for literally thousands of years in all cultures, so there must be something going on, like the whole process convincing the person to heal from within or something. It would be interesting to see a scientific study of such work, see if certain chemical levels are effected, Serotonin, etc. Kind of like how scientific examination has shown laughter to help with healing.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Isn't that a bit like asking who is to blame, the con man or the victim of the con?

I say it's the con man. The person deceiving the other person to believe what they are doing is something it isn't is to blame.

I say, if you feel like you're helped, then you are not conned.

Every time you put a coin in the slot machine, you are conned. Casinos are organized connery. But people are happy.

Every time you pray to your god, you're conned. Churches are organized connery. (Think of all gold there is in churches, who is conned? The poor people.) But people are happy.

Every time you vote, you're conned. White, red or black houses are organized connery. Do they keep their promises? What kind of cars do the politicians drive? But people are happy.

Every time you're see commersials in any form they're trying to con you. And when you believed them and you buy something - if you're happy, then everything is good, isn't it? This activities are organized connery.

You're willingly paying big bucks for a coffee at a bar, only ecause the barista is calling the coffee a fancy name, you're conned. But you're still happy.

If you go to your doctor and he says that you are going to be well, even if you have terminal cancer, you're conned.

So connery is a part of our society. If you feel happy, then you're not conned, even if you really are.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I say, if you feel like you're helped, then you are not conned.

Every time you put a coin in the slot machine, you are conned. Casinos are organized connery. But people are happy.

Every time you pray to your god, you're conned. Churches are organized connery. (Think of all gold there is in churches, who is conned? The poor people.) But people are ha ...[text shortened]... t of our society. If you feel happy, then you're not conned, even if you really are.

I say, if you feel like you're helped, then you are not conned.

I disagree. People feel like they are helped because they think they are helped. If someone says they actually help you and they know they aren't then that's dishonest and hence a con.

Every time you put a coin in the slot machine, you are conned. Casinos are organized connery. But people are happy.

I disagree. Casinos don't lie about your chances of winning. People are stupid in deceiving themselves into thinking they can be the one to win. If casinos said you have a 1 in 3 chance to win then that's a con. As it is, they're not conning anyone.

Every time you pray to your god, you're conned.

Self-deception is different. If those in a church are lying to you then yes, they are conning you.

Every time you vote, you're conned.

People aren't actually happy about this one, but it's still not a good thing that politicians are lying to people - whether people are happy or not.

Every time you're see commersials in any form they're trying to con you.

Not all marketing is lying. Yes, they try to make their product look good, but marketing has a place.

You're willingly paying big bucks for a coffee at a bar, only ecause the barista is calling the coffee a fancy name, you're conned.

No. They call it a fancy name and it's still the coffee you want. I am not being conned because I know what it is. Still, them lying is their fault, not the person buying it.

If you go to your doctor and he says that you are going to be well, even if you have terminal cancer, you're conned.

ONLY if the doctor is lying. In this case the doctor should be put in jail. It's his fault, not yours.

So connery is a part of our society. If you feel happy, then you're not conned, even if you really are.

I disagree completely. Your happiness doesn't determine the morality of the action taken.

A con is definite dishonesty. In some of your examples there is marketing, which is somewhat subtle dishonesty at times and sometimes more explicit. There are rules as to what you can and can not claim though and it's illegal to make false claims.

The customer being tricked into being happy doesn't make the seller's actions honest or moral.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Yet thousands of people go away happy after such sessions. Go figure. It's been going on for literally thousands of years in all cultures, so there must be something going on, like the whole process convincing the person to heal from within or something. It would be interesting to see a scientific study of such work, see if certain chemical levels are effec ...[text shortened]... erotonin, etc. Kind of like how scientific examination has shown laughter to help with healing.

People go away happy for the time being. When they realize the faith healer really didn't heal their cancer and stopping their chemotherapy was a big mistake then they may just realize that their happiness was misplaced.

People have been able to convince themselves and rationalize things amazingly. The heaven's gate cult and others who convinced themselves that killing themselves would get them to a paradise on the tail of a comet or other things.

I do find it amazing how good people are at rationalizing things to themselves or convincing themselves of crap. Some of the greatest minds have had their own little illogical and non-evidence based beliefs. Linus Pauling was a great scientist, but supposedly he believed in vitamin overdosing to cure just about anything.

To this day people think taking vitamins over the daily requirement will somehow improve your health.

The problem I have with homeopathic medicine, or any fraudulent medicine, is that the placebo effect cannot always work, and much of the time it cannot ever work.

please read:
http://www.cancure.org/homeopathy.htm

http://www.onlinehomeopath.com/aidscont.shtml

http://www.cancercenter.com/leukemia/naturopathic-medicine.cfm

http://www.hpathy.com/diseases/anthrax-symptoms-treatment-cure.asp

Homeopathic treatments for a headache? sure.
As a sleep aid? why not.
To treat AIDS, to treat Cancer, to treat Leukemia, to treat Anthrax? FRAUD. Pure and utter malicious, deceptive, greedy fraud.

If a friend of mine says that he taking some herbals for some thing that doesn't matter much, then, if it pleases him, I don't mind. The placebo is working.

But do we talk about diabetes, cancer, aids, or anything that can be easily treated by scientific methods, then I will object strongly. Of course!

A friend of mine suffers of tinnitus. He thinks that Ginco Biloba helps him. Then why not?

Does religion help? No. But some religious people deny blood transfusions, they try exorcism to get rid of demons, in the name of religion, the same religion as the president of the United State believes in, then many people think it's alright. Now this is a problem!

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what homeopathy is. It is NOT anthroposphical medicine (Steiner), nor is it herbal medicine. It is the system set up by Hahneman (not sure about spelling) where a substance becomes more potent the more diluted it is.

I personally have not found it beneficial, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Afterall dowsing for water and other stuff works. How I don't know, but it does.

Herbal medicine definately does work and is given in pharmacologically active doses. There is a lot of research into herbs, but the relative lack of trials is indicative of the patent system for medicines. If a company can't isolate a single active ingredient and synthesise it then they won't research it, whilst whole plants can't be patented, therefore the cost of research cannot be recouped. Also herbalists prescribe on an individual basis, rather than necessarily a particular herb for a particular illness.

85% of conventional medical interventions are not "evidence based", but that does not make them clinically irrelevent. RCTs and meta-analysis whilst deemed the gold standard of research still have flaws. Very few places will pay for research which won't give a financial reward at the end of it, whatever the potential benefit for humanity.

On a personal level, my mum refused conventional treatment for her cancer, after watching her sister and mother die within 18 months of diagnosis with chemo. She lived 13 years before dying of another primary. Her original cancer was probably not cured (the NHS was not interested once she refused treatment- so no scans), but caused her no pain.

I think it's very easy for people to say conventional medicine must be right because look at all the lives saved in emergencies, and therefore all others must be wrong. A more integrative approach would be better.

Originally posted by london nick
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what homeopathy is. It is NOT anthroposphical medicine (Steiner), nor is it herbal medicine. It is the system set up by Hahneman (not sure about spelling) where a substance becomes more potent the more diluted it is.

I personally have not found it beneficial, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Afterall do ...[text shortened]... , and therefore all others must be wrong. A more integrative approach would be better.

Dowsing for water works? Do you have any reputable references on that? Every time I've seen it tested it's failed and failed miserably.

Not only is homeopathy saying that the more diluted something is then the more effective it is (something not based on any kind of evidence), it claims that something that causes the opposite effect diluted will be most effective. I.e. Caffeine diluted will cause you to sleep.

Herbal medicine can work if the right herbs are used for the right things. However many who sell, use them claim more benefits than can be expected. One of the primary problems in the US at least is that herbal remedy sellers don't have to actually prove what they claim. They can claim something helps in a category and they don't have to provide any evidence that it does. They don't have the same regulation as real pharmaceuticals.

Conventional medicine works better because, it does. It has been tested and the procedures are proven for the most part. Yes, there are flaws and things we don't know and side effects. This is also not the reason why homeopathy is wrong.

Homeopathy isn't ineffective because modern medicine is effective and I don't see anyone who has made that argument.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I say, if you feel like you're helped, then you are not conned.

Every time you put a coin in the slot machine, you are conned. Casinos are organized connery. But people are happy.

Every time you pray to your god, you're conned. Churches are organized connery. (Think of all gold there is in churches, who is conned? The poor people.) But people are ha ...[text shortened]... t of our society. If you feel happy, then you're not conned, even if you really are.

Would you say that to SEAN Connery?🙂

Originally posted by london nick

I think it's very easy for people to say conventional medicine must be right because look at all the lives saved in emergencies, and therefore all others must be wrong. A more integrative approach would be better.

My doctor is a homeopath and a medical doctor. He's prescribed both forms of medicine depending on the case, although antibiotics and such are usually reserved for emergencies.

london nick - Oh, that's right, Rudoph Steiner was not the man founding homeopathy, but antrosophy. Samuel Hahnemann founded homeopathy, but Steiner did actually support homeopathy.

I'm sorry about your mother. Did she die happy, or do you think she would die happier with chemo?
In Sweden we have a antroposophic institute where terminal cancer patients are giving a good end of their life. In conventional medicine I think the soul, the wellbeing, is not taken into enough consideration. This institute is very much questionned, but one have always to take the patients feelings into consideration. How would I like to die when the time comes?

But giving people homeopathic medicine os not better nor worse than pray to god. Just as efficient, just as medically meaningless. But if the patient feels good about it, then who are we to judge?

sonhouse - Connery is a english word, isn't it? 🙂 What was the man, Sean, thinking of when he took the name? It is his artist name, isn't it?

Yes, there are little knowledge about alternative medicine. People against this kind of medicine gladly lump it all together. Elephant hair, with Gonco Biloba, with D-30 homeophatic medicine. We can all laugh about it, but we have always to think of the placebo effect.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
london nick - Oh, that's right, Rudoph Steiner was not the man founding homeopathy, but antrosophy. Samuel Hahnemann founded homeopathy, but Steiner did actually support homeopathy.

I'm sorry about your mother. Did she die happy, or do you think she would die happier with chemo?
In Sweden we have a antroposophic institute where terminal cancer patie ...[text shortened]... atic medicine. We can all laugh about it, but we have always to think of the placebo effect.

Sean Connery is a Welchman, I think that is his real name.