A few springs ago, all our four maple trees dropped an enormous number of seeds in unison. Those little whirly jig things spun down at a pretty constant clip for days and days until the whole yard was covered in them. It was so many they choked out the grass and I had to rake them up and then pulled seedlings out of the garden beds all summer. WHat caused this display? In the prior two winters we had a long very cold extended winter and the trees "decided" not to drop any seeds at all. They remembered though, and when they got a warm one they tripled down.
It sent me down a rabbit hole on plant memories. How are they formed and recalled? It's sort of well known that plants can remember and adapt. The same species grows differently depending on the climate. They bend towards light etc. Basic stress-dependent molecular responses that bacteria also can adapt to.
But plants also make complex stochastic (unpredictable) decisions. Thus, they appear to possess congition and intelligence. Studies suggest that plants and animals share some of the same mechanisms of learning. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep38427
Plants can also develop new behaviors through training: eg. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2015/12/15/can-a-plant-remember-this-one-seems-to-heres-the-evidence/#close
How do they exhibit these complex behavioral changes in the absence of neurons? Where is the information stored and how is it recalled? Does anyone have insights on what the proposed models are for plant memory?
@wildgrass saidJust curious; Do you talk to your plants?
It's sort of well known that plants can remember and adapt.
But plants also make complex stochastic (unpredictable) decisions. Thus, they appear to possess congition and intelligence.
Plants can also develop new behaviors through training
@humy saidno. would you agree with this statement?
Just curious; Do you talk to your plants?
The emergence of associative learning has been proposed as one of the key biological innovations that powered the Cambrian explosion by driving the evolution of new sensory modalities and hence, altering the life and adaptive possibilities of animals. Our results now show that associative learning is also an essential component of plant behaviour. We propose that the ability to construct, remember and recall new relationships established via associative learning constitutes a universal adaptive mechanism shared by all organisms. The ubiquity of associative learning across taxa, including non-animal groups suggests that the role this learning process plays in nature is thus far underexplored and underappreciated. Our findings raise the possibility that associative learning may have played a similarly important role in the remarkable diversification of the plant kingdom and that this kind of learning emerged in plant and animal groups alike via convergent evolution.
If plants can do it without a CNS, what are we using ours for?
@wildgrass saidYes, I would agree with that statement. I was only joking.
would you agree with this statement?
@wildgrass saidDon't ask me. Ask a plant whisperer.
@humy
Any ideas as to how a plant can learn a behavior?
@humy saidNot sure why the fixation on speech? Plants don't have ears or vocal cords, but they do display complex behaviors without any specialized cell types that are commonly associated with intelligence. How do they do that?
Don't ask me. Ask a plant whisperer.
@cheesemaster saidYes, it appears so. I mean, we do know that individual plant and animal cells possess the capacity for memory and learning. They know what their identity is for example (skin, blood etc.) even when they are withdrawn from that environment, and how old they are. Non-neuronal cells can communicate via cell-cell contacts and secreted factors. Plants also have a version of an endocrine system directing growth and energy storage.
Very interesting but I don't think humans are smart enough to figure it out. 🤔
Maybe their is more to plant cells than we originally thought?
But longer term memories? Not sure. How'd that tree know that two springs had passed since it dropped seeds?
The flipped question is even more interesting, I think: Do animal cells/tissues have the capacity for long term memory formation and recall (analogous to plants)? This actually might be testable, but not sure if it has been.
@wildgrass
Maybe the tree functions with temperature and it can only react if certain temperatures are met and maintained?
Or maybe the tree is actually dying and is spreading its seed while it can?
Life does do that when it is dying 🤔
@cheesemaster saidIt was very clearly a calculated decision, not a temperature-based reaction, since the number of seeeds were proportional to prior seasons' bad winters. The trees counted up the number of seasons they went without dropping seeds.
@wildgrass
Maybe the tree functions with temperature and it can only react if certain temperatures are met and maintained?
Or maybe the tree is actually dying and is spreading its seed while it can?
Life does do that when it is dying 🤔
I think a lot of folks like humy (maybe) are assuming that the idea of plant intelligence is a metaphor or anthropomorphism or human psychosis. And there are some weirdos out there talking about non-existent plant neurons. But
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreamorris/2018/05/09/a-mind-without-a-brain-the-science-of-plant-intelligence-takes-root/?sh=6ed8e73676dc
The more I read about this it seems we are thinking about plant biology the wrong way. We should treat them as cognitive and intelligent life forms.
as the scientist in this forbes article discusses
I think it's a lack of understanding of what we mean when we talk about our own intelligence, our own awareness. We can dig into the brain as much as we like, we also know that that's not going to give us the entire story because the brain is just an organ–we forget that. We forget that the brain is an organ as much as my guts, or my heart, or my lungs. It's got a function just as these other organs do. It's amazing what it can do for us, or any animals that have it. But ultimately it's doing a job and that job can be achieved and that task can be fulfilled in many ways. Life has done it many times over before or even within the evolutionary history of brains and neural systems.
@wildgrass saidSorry last post on this as it appears no one else is interested. I am just floored that its generally accepted in the plant world that an organism without a nervous system can form memories and adapt behaviors long term. Yowza!
It was very clearly a calculated decision, not a temperature-based reaction, since the number of seeeds were proportional to prior seasons' bad winters. The trees counted up the number of seasons they went without dropping seeds.
I think a lot of folks like humy (maybe) are assuming that the idea of plant intelligence is a metaphor or anthropomorphism or human psychosis. ...[text shortened]... many times over before or even within the evolutionary history of brains and neural systems.[/quote]
This review article proposes a very intriguing hypothesis. They suggest that stressful events provide the tipping point for whether or not plants remember or forget. They suggest that it's not the same kind of memories we have of our grandma but the entire organism makes the "decision" to rewire or not. If the stress is stressful enough, rewiring happens. If not, no rewiring. They link this to molecular changes (e.g. RNA turnover rates etc.) that change the plants physiology. So cool.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57614