Math proof, universe not a simulation

@wildgrass said
You wouldn't need to code the entire universe at 1:1 scale. There's no way humanity will ever be able to travel more than, say, 20 light years from earth. Everything past that could just be a projection of the physical universe.

If you've seen the Truman show, he lived in a giant dome where it looked like the sun/stars were real but it was just projected on the roof. You can do that with video game coding too.

Sure but OUR roof is about 20 billion light years away.....

@sonhouse said
Sure but OUR roof is about 20 billion light years away.....

Our roof appears to be 20 billion light years away. But the edge of the simulation is not that far. A computer simulator doesn't need to model this larger area in 3D because it's impossible to go there.

@wildgrass said
Our roof appears to be 20 billion light years away. But the edge of the simulation is not that far. A computer simulator doesn't need to model this larger area in 3D because it's impossible to go there.

I think you are dreaming. So how far is YOUR idea of where this 'roof' is?

@sonhouse said
I think you are dreaming. So how far is YOUR idea of where this 'roof' is?

I am absolutely dreaming. But it is an old philosophy argument that won't ever really be resolved. The universe is full of unresolved contradictions that do not have good scientific explanations. These can be resolved with simulation theory. There's also not all that much evidence that our universe is real and not a simulation. As Descartes famously said it's only in thought that you know you exist.

Simulation theory is plausible based on several observations. Our own technology in creating realistic virtual realities is advancing very fast and assuming modest progress it is reasonable to think vr can be made indistinguishable from "reality". Some in physics fields have made the simulation argument because of quantum mechanics where reality seems "rendered" after observation. Our biological systems are built based on code resembling computer systems. Then there are those physical constraints with a seemingly never ending universe actually resembles programmed parameters because those distances beyond a few dozen light years are unreachable by humanity.

Then theres trump. He is definitely a bug in the mainframe.

It's debatable. I don't think our telescopic observations of perceived distances disproves the simulation theory.

@sonhouse said
I think you are dreaming. So how far is YOUR idea of where this 'roof' is?

In a simulation there is no distance, only the appearance of distance. Space is part of the simulation: a sensory form grounded in code.

But to be clear, I don't believe we exist in a simulated universe. What is a simulated universe? I'd say it's one that is constructed with intent in a computerized environment. "It from bit." My problem with that is that I don't believe, based on a variety of metaphysical arguments, that consciousness can arise from algorithmic processes. That's the real rub. Simulated realities are the rotten harvest of an unquestioned materialist ideology taken to its logical extreme. Show me a string of 1's and 0's that capture a moment of joy, or the flavor of chocolate, and then I'll reconsider.

Though, as I asked in my previous post, what's the difference between a simulated and actual reality? Ultimately it comes down to conscious intent. A simulated universe has "gods": namely, the programmers of the simulation algorithm, who act with intent, planning everything with deliberation and full awareness. These "gods" may be deists who are content to sit back and let their simulation run on its own once it's initiated, according to its own laws of physics, but that's just to say they're lazy gods.

An actual reality arises, I believe, from a universal field of undifferentiated consciousness without intent. Universal consciousness (UC) is driven to action by a will (urges, or some sense of volition), and differentiates and evolves according to the sensory perceptions of dissociated alters arising within it (like you and me) which interact with one another. These sensory perceptions are what also give rise to space and time as part of a consensus reality arrived at organically, starting with the tiniest microbes, and working its way up the evolutionary tree to more complex life forms that correspond to dissociated mental complexes of UC. No intent here, and no gods: just consciousness alone, at the ground of all existence.

@Soothfast said
In a simulation there is no distance, only the appearance of distance. Space is part of the simulation: a sensory form grounded in code.

But to be clear, I don't believe we exist in a simulated universe. What is a simulated universe? I'd say it's one that is constructed with intent in a computerized environment. "It from bit." My problem with that is that I don't believe ...[text shortened]... plexes of UC. No intent here, and no gods: just consciousness alone, at the ground of all existence.

Yes, no gods for sure, at least if there are gods they or it, whatever, is strictly hands off and we are on our own no matter god or no god.

@wildgrass said

Simulation theory is plausible based on several observations. Our own technology in creating realistic virtual realities is advancing very fast and assuming modest progress it is reasonable to think vr can be made indistinguishable from "reality".

We don't need digital gadgets and algorithms to know that something that isn't real can seem so. Sensory hallucinations have been experienced by humans since prehistoric times, and they can engage all the senses, unlike VR worlds which are largely audiovisual in nature. And unlike VR worlds, sensory hallucinations can intersect seamlessly with our private inner world of thoughts and emotions. It is for this reason that I find it entirely plausible that reality is mental-based, and find it endlessly amusing that materialists are now taking a page from idealist metaphysics in regards to computerized simulations while simultaneously clinging to the same tired old materialist orthodoxy that holds that quantum particles—themselves chimera existing only in our field of sensory perceptions—can conjure consciousness.

Ultimately, the simulation hypothesis kicks the can down the road as regards the origins of existence. Peel away the layers of simulations within simulations, and one has to eventually hit "rock bottom" and find a real reality populated by conscious entities. Where did they come from?

@Soothfast said
We don't need digital gadgets and algorithms to know that something that isn't real can seem so. Sensory hallucinations have been experienced by humans since prehistoric times, and they can engage all the senses, unlike VR worlds which are largely audiovisual in nature. And unlike VR worlds, sensory hallucinations can intersect seamlessly with our private inner world ...[text shortened]... ck bottom" and find a real reality populated by conscious entities. Where did they come from?

I mean in practical terms it could be explained by a number of things.

Ultimately, the simulation hypothesis kicks the can down the road as regards the origins of existence. Peel away the layers of simulations within simulations, and one has to eventually hit "rock bottom" and find a real reality populated by conscious entities. Where did they come from?

Yeah I agree with all this. It's turtles all the way down.

@wildgrass said
I mean in practical terms it could be explained by a number of things.

Ultimately, the simulation hypothesis kicks the can down the road as regards the origins of existence. Peel away the layers of simulations within simulations, and one has to eventually hit "rock bottom" and find a real reality populated by conscious entities. Where did they come from?

Yeah I agree with all this. It's turtles all the way down.

So as a simulation why would it make accidents like Columbia Shuttle? Some master plan? Or just a glitch in the programming?

@sonhouse said
So as a simulation why would it make accidents like Columbia Shuttle? Some master plan? Or just a glitch in the programming?

I don't know that it makes anything happen.

Trump is a glitch for sure. Someone or something tripped one of the wires on the mainframe and it crapped out.

@Soothfast said
In a simulation there is no distance, only the appearance of distance. Space is part of the simulation: a sensory form grounded in code.

But to be clear, I don't believe we exist in a simulated universe. What is a simulated universe? I'd say it's one that is constructed with intent in a computerized environment. "It from bit." My problem with that is that I don't believe ...[text shortened]... plexes of UC. No intent here, and no gods: just consciousness alone, at the ground of all existence.

Show me a string of 1's and 0's that capture a moment of joy, or the flavor of chocolate, and then I'll reconsider.

In my opinion, the advancement in machine learning has been so rapid and impressive in the last 20 years that it is inevitable that these feelings can be represented by algorithm.