1. Standard membersasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    Walking the earth.
    Joined
    13 Oct '04
    Moves
    50664
    27 Mar '14 06:561 edit
    Artists' renderings of wormholes show two (very large) 3-D spaces, with bright event horizons, connected by a tube. Like this:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wormhole+graphic&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#biv=i%7C1%3Bd%7CDPIKU8iaoxBsKM%3A

    But, isn't that wrong? The singularity is at the geographic center of the "tube" - which actually isn't a tube at all. The black hole is acting more or less equally (disregarding quantum effects) on spacetime and matter in each radial direction in a sphere - right? So, wouldn't we actually see an event horizon and a swirl no matter where we looked? There is no tube, or perhaps even more accurately, there are an infinite number of straight tubes radiating in every possible direction from the singularity. Right?

    (Forget about traveling through wormholes. The singularity's gravity went to all the trouble to capture you, it's not letting you go. It's a one-way trip.).

    How I do love 3 AM...
  2. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    27 Mar '14 07:43
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Artists' renderings of wormholes show two (very large) 3-D spaces, with bright event horizons, connected by a tube. Like this:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wormhole+graphic&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#biv=i%7C1%3Bd%7CDPIKU8iaoxBsKM%3A

    But, isn't that wrong? The singularity is at the geographic center of the "tube" - which actually ...[text shortened]... ouble to capture you, it's not letting you go. It's a one-way trip.).

    How I do love 3 AM...
    In my humble opinion, you are correct.

    Artists have their imagination and show it in art. Art is not science. But it helps to popularize science to the public. But it is not science. Just pictures.

    Can a tube be a singularity in the first place? It has at least one dimension while a singularity must be a dimensionless point, or else it is not a singularity. (Tell me if I'm wrong.)

    I don't think that we ever can exploit wormholes. I'm not even sure that a wormhole in our macro world exist. In subatomic world, yes. But large wormholes? No, I don't think so.
  3. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52619
    27 Mar '14 10:53
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    In my humble opinion, you are correct.

    Artists have their imagination and show it in art. Art is not science. But it helps to popularize science to the public. But it is not science. Just pictures.

    Can a tube be a singularity in the first place? It has at least one dimension while a singularity must be a dimensionless point, or else it is not a sing ...[text shortened]... le in our macro world exist. In subatomic world, yes. But large wormholes? No, I don't think so.
    I visualize spacetime like a matrix of lines very close to one another, a series of lines in X, another in Y, another in Z and then the whole thing evolving in time. So given a certain mass the lines will tend to converge on the mass from all three directions.

    I think that would be a more accurate description of what happens from the incursion of a small mass where the lines all bend into each other towards the mass to what happens near a black hole where the lines themselves are stretched out towards the black hole kind of being pinched together and stretched into the 'insides' of the black hole.

    I would love to get a graphic artist involved to actualize my visualization but know no graphic dudes or ladies.
  4. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    27 Mar '14 12:17
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I visualize spacetime like a matrix of lines very close to one another, a series of lines in X, another in Y, another in Z and then the whole thing evolving in time. So given a certain mass the lines will tend to converge on the mass from all three directions.

    I think that would be a more accurate description of what happens from the incursion of a small ...[text shortened]... get a graphic artist involved to actualize my visualization but know no graphic dudes or ladies.
    I have no problems visualizing a black hole, as a singular point, and the spacial dimensions bending. (Let the time aside for now.)

    But to have a tubelike black hole as one one-dimensional singular 'pont', well, in theory is one thing, but in reality, no. And this is what macro worm-holes is all about.

    Show me one, and I will believe it.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52619
    27 Mar '14 15:01
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I have no problems visualizing a black hole, as a singular point, and the spacial dimensions bending. (Let the time aside for now.)

    But to have a tubelike black hole as one one-dimensional singular 'pont', well, in theory is one thing, but in reality, no. And this is what macro worm-holes is all about.

    Show me one, and I will believe it.
    Even the existence of black holes is so far just theory with a lot of supporting evidence. There was thought that the big accelerators would generate a small hole but that fell through, as it were🙂

    What seems to be known is stuff floating around the black hole somehow ends up in a spinning disk shape around the 'equator' of the BH. Then stuff gets thrown out perpendicular to that disk.

    That is of course all external effects of the hole itself, which would bear little physical relation to the disks and the energy leaving the 'poles'.

    For sure there would not be a tube of bent spacetime just leading down the hole, it would surely be a full 3 dimensional effect like how you might visualize a whirlpool draining out a bathtub but that is basically a 2 D effect and what we would really see is if that 2D effect were spinning on all axes at once and all spacetime was warping around it in all directions including time.
  6. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    28 Mar '14 07:34
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Even the existence of black holes is so far just theory with a lot of supporting evidence. There was thought that the big accelerators would generate a small hole but that fell through, as it were🙂

    What seems to be known is stuff floating around the black hole somehow ends up in a spinning disk shape around the 'equator' of the BH. Then stuff gets throw ...[text shortened]... ng on all axes at once and all spacetime was warping around it in all directions including time.
    "... and the energy leaving the 'poles'."
    And that energy is not leaving from within the event horizon, it's just a phenomenon starting at the outside.

    "you might visualize a whirlpool draining out a bathtub but that is basically a 2 D effect"
    This is easy to visualize, and this is supported from Hollywood and artists visualization. It has nothing to do with reality. I visual a black hole in 3D, and this doesn't come from Hollywood.

    But I cannot visualize a black hole in the shape of a tube in the macro world. It would collapse instantaneously. And I cannot even less that any material object can travle unaffected through it to another place in Universe. No, that I cannot. And therefore I don't believe in macro worm holes.

    In the quantum world, it's another matter...
  7. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52619
    28 Mar '14 10:25
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    "... and the energy leaving the 'poles'."
    And that energy is not leaving from within the event horizon, it's just a phenomenon starting at the outside.

    "you might visualize a whirlpool draining out a bathtub but that is basically a 2 D effect"
    This is easy to visualize, and this is supported from Hollywood and artists visualization. It has nothing t ...[text shortened]... d therefore I don't believe in macro worm holes.

    In the quantum world, it's another matter...
    Well, the worm hole thing presupposes the existence of 'negative matter' or negative energy which is what allegedly supports the tube shape. Of course all this is just supposition till one is actually built. I give it a thousand years of constant scientific development before it would be done though.
  8. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    28 Mar '14 11:50
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Well, the worm hole thing presupposes the existence of 'negative matter' or negative energy which is what allegedly supports the tube shape. Of course all this is just supposition till one is actually built. I give it a thousand years of constant scientific development before it would be done though.
    Well, let's wait and see...
  9. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52619
    28 Mar '14 12:36
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Well, let's wait and see...
    If I live to see it, I'll put something about it on your gravemarker🙂
  10. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    28 Mar '14 14:54
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    If I live to see it, I'll put something about it on your gravemarker🙂
    I think it's a more trivial thing to invent a natural eternal life rather than to invent a stable wormhole.

    But I see the fascination with both!
Back to Top