How cheaters are detected

Originally posted by Nyxie
This is ridicolous...

The top players here do not have to prove they don't cheat. It's up to others to prove that they do cheat if they suspect them.

So he does'nt talk to you, boohoo. This gives you no right to accuse him of cheating. If you have a problem or a good reason to suspect, take it to the game mods.

ICS are like public high school sweetie, post a complaint, whether it's legit or not, about an admired or popular player, and you get nothing but wrath. This is what cheaters hope to accomplish through their cheating, the reputation, the renown, and it works well.

Originally posted by mateulose
ICS are like public high school sweetie, post a complaint, whether it's legit or not, about an admired or popular player, and you get nothing but wrath. This is what cheaters hope to accomplish through their cheating, the reputation, the renown, and it works well.

No, Mateulose, just accusing people without any evidence doesn't shift the burden to THEM to prove ANYTHING. People who say someone is cheating have to produce "overwhelming evidence" according to Russ. All you're doing is saying something over and over without any proof; that makes you an a**hole. If you have some evidence, present it to the Game Mods when they get going; oytherwise shut up! These types of public accusations without any evidence are turning people off of the whole concept of the Game Mods - and the Game Mods should be a beneficial addition to this site IF they are allowed to do their job professionally.

Originally posted by no1marauder
If you set up a middlegame position and asked Kasparov in one room and Kramnik in another what move they would make, I feel pretty certain they'd agree at least 60% of the time. And most of the people talking about engine matches consider it a match if EITHER of the 1st two choices are played; thus, I wouldn't be too surprised if they reached 80-90%. ...[text shortened]... interested to hear from some strong players out there to see if they agree with that conclusion.

This is interesting - I have two anecdotes from chess books I've read that speak to this.

Firstly in Yermo's 'Road to Chess Improvement', he mentions a conversation with Khalifman where Khalif says that any strong (2650+) GM will play the same moves as any other strong GM 95% of the time. HOWEVER from the 5% of moves that vary, you can (assuming you are also strong) tell who has played a given game. The point is that there are very few 'decision points' in a game between top players, and this is where there style will be shown - once a decision is made the next few moves will follow automatically.

The other story I can't recall where I read it, but Yusupov mentioned watching Morozevich take ages on an automatic move. Wondering why he was taking so long to move, Yus spent some time analysing the position, and eventually found an interesting second option for him. After another 20 minutes he looked at the game and found Moro had chose a third equally interesting option that he hadn't considered at all.

No idea whether that helps at all, but provides some context around why the topic of move matching is so difficult and why people analysing games for comp use need to be pretty strong players in their own right.

Originally posted by mateulose
A part of me doesn't want to post this, because it will give cheaters ideas, but chances are very good cheaters know these facts anyways.

How do you detect cheaters? Indeed, it seems hard for not very knowledgable players to understan ...[text shortened]... TO WARRANT SUSPISION) or more, have likely rigged the chess dice.

All very interesting, I'm sure. But how is this a SITE IDEA?! Do you understand what On Topic means or do you decide which forum to post your blurb in by the roll of a die? 😕

Originally posted by Osse
This is interesting - I have two anecdotes from chess books I've read that speak to this.

Firstly in Yermo's 'Road to Chess Improvement', he mentions a conversation with Khalifman where Khalif says that any strong (2650+) GM will play the same moves as any other strong GM 95% of the time. HOWEVER from the 5% of moves that vary, you can (assuming you are ...[text shortened]... d why people analysing games for comp use need to be pretty strong players in their own right.

I've always beleived, that in most positions, there are at least 4 quality good moves you can play, that all give you winning chances if you beleive in your plans. Most chess positions are naturally quiet and nothing is really forced. Sure, if you enter a complex game and see a tactic that says, wins a rook, all GM's will find/play the same thing.

HOWEVER, most positions, this is seldom possible and in most positions, you are left with the dillema of "what to do?", and you have to think of something subtle, and many good players have different ways of going about the "what to do" phase that happens in most moves of chess.

Some players may try a tactic at all costs, some may set a clever trap, others may simply activate or centralize a peice, some may even sacrefice a pawn to make the game non-boring and get time to get an attack rolling, some may not care about their peices at all at this point, take a risk for a slightly worse position with a better pawn structure, then defend accurately so they can win the endgame, etc.

These are all huge choices players make on MOST moves during a chess game. Sure, if GM's found a tactic that won a rook, of course they would all play the same thing, but for most moves, the game is not so simple, there are many possibilities.

Originally posted by mateulose
I've always beleived, that in most positions, there are at least 4 quality good moves you can play, that all give you winning chances if you beleive in your plans. Most chess positions are naturally quiet and nothing is really forced. Sure, if you enter a complex game and see a tactic that says, wins a rook, all GM's will find/play the same thing.

HO ...[text shortened]... lay the same thing, but for most moves, the game is not so simple, there are many possibilities.

You didn't pay any attention to Osse's post; what all good players do is decide on a general plan and then the moves flow pretty staightforward from that critical "decision point" IF you're a strong player. On move 17, for example, Osse might decide to push a pawn with the object of opening a file for his rook; I might make a move preparing to occupy a weak square with a piece. We diverge on that move; however, AFTER the initial move is made, we will both see what the other's plan was and then are moves would match once we seek the same objective. You don't change your plan every single move (at least if you're a good player) and moves are not random occurences; the move you're about to make should be the culmination of the moves before. You have to throughly understand the game if you're going to try to determine IF a player is using an engine; that is why Dave Tebb and Grayeyes are perfect for the Game Mods (and Osse would be, too) and your ranting that you KNOW someone is cheating because they play extraordinarily well is just ignorant guesswork on your part.

Originally posted by Nyxie
This is ridicolous...

The top players here do not have to prove they don't cheat. It's up to others to prove that they do cheat if they suspect them.

So he does'nt talk to you, boohoo. This gives you no right to accuse him of cheating. If you have a problem or a good reason to suspect, take it to the game mods.

OMFG, not another, "don't segregate top players thread".

Listen girl, the fact of the matter is, engines PLAY WELL. Most cheaters, likely, will be 2000 plus. This isn't segregation against good players for simply being good, the fact of the matter is, engines play good too, so naturally mostly good players will be investigated.

There's no way to slip around this, it's reality, fact, and to be honest, top players should deal with it and stop whining. If a top player comes online and says, "I don't want the CP because they segregate against me because I'm good", immediately, he should be investigated. He doesn't want the cheat police to exist and he's unwilling to back up his play for a reason, IMHO. His idea of "affirmative action" against good player segregation is just a disguise, a disguise you have fallen for it seems missy.

Even Tebb himself admits that probably all the top 100 players will be investigated at first, if they are cleared, then they likely won't be investigated further as obviously they are already good players and don't need an engine to become a good player.

I see no harm in this, but of course, we have the Nyxie's, Ravello's, etc, of the world that want to defend a few friends they admire and don't even want the CP to look at them, perhabs they know some of these friends do cheat already. I've come across these types before, they do whatever they can influence the position that their top friends don't cheat, to protect their image, the idea is a friend is more valuable then a pile of handles online your friend cheats on. PATHETIC REALLY! Look at Boris, he still maintains the top players of his 1st place clan, who mysteriously left the minute the cheat police idea came about and accusations against them flung around, were legitament masters and great players. He even maintains the CP idea "threatened" legit master players off the site and it's ruining it. Pfff, yeah right, if they were real men, they would stand up for themselves, not run away the first day the CP is announced.

I'm not saying just top players cheat, we have the tlai's and JW's of the world too, but they are so obvious and so bad at cheating, that they are relatively harmless when you look at it. A few glances of their games, and they should be gone within a day, however the top level cheaters are a whole different breed. IMHO, FGWE was right (about one thing, and being a cheater himself I'm sure he knows all about this) that it isn't worth wasting too much time with the JW's. I agree, the JW's should be banned immediately, but there are simply bigger fish to fry that cause way more damage.

Mateulose: Even Tebb himself admits that probably all the top 100 players will be investigated at first, if they are cleared, then they likely won't be investigated further as obviously they are already good players and don't need an engine to become a good player.


ME: Please provide a thread where Dave Tebb said anything remotely approaching this statement or immediately retract it with an apology to Dave for being such a presumptous nitwit..

Originally posted by mateulose
OMFG, not another, "don't segregate top players thread".

Listen girl, the fact of the matter is, engines PLAY WELL. Most cheaters, likely, will be 2000 plus. This isn't segregation against good players for simply being good, the fact of the matter is, engines play good too, so naturally mostly good players will be investigated.

There's no way t ...[text shortened]... hould be banned immediately, but there are simply bigger fish to fry that cause way more damage.

Mateulose,you're only a sorry a**
At ForumWars you posted that you talked to Ironman during one of the games you played with him.
Strange enough,I searched for games between you and the guy but I didn't find any.
Can you explain this?
Or it's just another stupid lie for your ranting purposes?

Stop writing ''XXX said this,YYY said that'' when it's not true,you're pissing off half the site with your blatant lies.

Your personal attacks without a proof against Ironman are totally unjustified.
I'll send a message to Russ asking for dealing with you since you don't want to stop,maybe you'll listen to him.

Originally posted by mateulose
They are TOTALLY JUSTIFED. No more justified then posts by Trackhead and Greyeyes in the past accusing ppl who cheating, who amazingly, packed up and left. The same will happen here, although I am going big and dangerously and the dude has renown here greater then god, that I admit, it's going to be war, and I may get banned for it, so what, I know I'm r ...[text shortened]... they "claim to be a new man/woman" after confessing or being caught as a cheater. That's BS!

come on, give me the lowdown on suspected cheaters 🙂

Originally posted by mateulose
Yeah, what a genius lawyer we have here folks. . .

I trust "folks" doesn't refer to anyone outside of your immediate family.

In case you haven't noticed, your sudden conversion from "whining loser" to "expert sleuth " is not attracting many fans....

Originally posted by mateulose
They are TOTALLY JUSTIFED. No more justified then posts by Trackhead and Greyeyes in the past accusing ppl who cheating, who amazingly, packed up and left. The same will happen here, although I am going big and dangerously and the dude has renown here greater then god, that I admit, it's going to be war, and I may get banned for it, so what, I know I'm r ...[text shortened]... they "claim to be a new man/woman" after confessing or being caught as a cheater. That's BS!

The BIG problem with your crusade is not whether you are right or wrong.

Frankly, nobody gives hoot whether YOU, per se, are right or wrong. The BIG problem with your crusade is that you have missed the boat. It has gone, It sailed away....

Dropping names as potential cheats in these forums isn't going to cut it any more. You can name every one of the top 100, 200, 300. It doesn't matter. You missed that window of opportunity. The band-wagon has rolled out of town already...

Was your name on the list of game mod volunteers? How many votes did you garner? That vote is over...

You are now in the same position as everyone else: If you have evidence of cheating, you can submit that evidence to the game mods the moment they are constituted. If the evidence is "overwhelming" justice will be served.

Right now, all you are doing now is farting in the lift. You are making yourself look like a uncouth twit, not that you aren't.

You whine "they lied to us and used us like a tool for so many years." So many years? But you only joined RHP in August. Where is your credibility, man? At least Trackhead and Greyeyes have some.