1. Joined
    09 Mar '06
    Moves
    415
    06 Jun '06 10:18
    While ruminating in the shower today.I asked myself the retorical question "If people really believe in God then why do they sin?". Surely if someone truely believes in God then there isn't a chance in hell that they are going to sin because it would make no sense to do so. I came up with the answer that people are irrational and therefore don't always think of the consequences to what they do and therefore sin.
    This brought up another question which was "Why create something that is irrational? Why create a flawed man when you could create a perfect one?". Does this make God irrational too since it makes no sense (at least to me) to make something that isn't perfect. Does this mean that God is flawed? And isn't this a bit of a paradox because can someone who knows everything have a flaw?
    I would just like to get peoples view on what they think, I'm not saying for or against God really, just asking a question.
  2. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    06 Jun '06 10:50
    Originally posted by MonsieurGee
    While ruminating in the shower today.I asked myself the retorical question "If people really believe in God then why do they sin?". Surely if someone truely believes in God then there isn't a chance in hell that they are going to sin because it would make no sense to do so. I came up with the answer that people are irrational and therefore don't always t ...[text shortened]... w on what they think, I'm not saying for or against God really, just asking a question.
    Lets deal with the flawed God part. How do we know God is perfect? Because the Bible says so. How do we know the Bible is right? Because the Bible is perfect. How do we know the Bible is perfect? 1. Because the Bible says so or 2. Because God is perfect and he would not allow an imperfect Bible.

    Now for the belief in God part. I have often thought that many so called 'believers' are actually more on the agnostic side and are just playing the odds. That is on the off chance that God exists, better not upset him. I am now starting to think that your idea that people are just not rational is a better theory though of course the truth is probably that each person has thier own reasons and there is no one answer.

    I did point out in the 'would you take the mark' thread that no sane person would knowingly send themselves to hell if they fully understood what hell was and believed in its existance. However I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible where it says that sin is only sin if rationally and knowlegably planned and thought out. Sadly this tends to blow up the whole 'God is Just' claim so theologans tie themselves in knots trying to deal with that one.
    In fact I believe that the whole genesis account is intended to try to explain how it is possible to sin without knowing that you are and how it cannot be blamed on God. However I personally think that it doesnt actually explain anything.
  3. Joined
    25 Sep '04
    Moves
    1779
    06 Jun '06 12:02
    Man consists of a body, mind and spirit. You know what your body is. It feeds information through your senses into your mind where you think and have emotions. The spirit in a man is dead and cannot receive things of God, so for the sinner, he has only one source of information coming into his mind. When a person is “born again” God beings his spirit back to life. That person now has another source of information (of a spiritual nature concerning the things of God) coming into his mind. Here is where the conflict for a Christian comes in as explained by the Apostle Paul. There is a struggle in the mind…am I going to do the things my body is telling my mind to do or am I going to do the things the Spirit of God is telling me to do. I have to make the choice in my mind.

    I could never live good enough to please God, but because I have accepted the report He gave of his Son, Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty for my sins, when God looks at me, He sees Christ’s righteousness, and accepts the fact that Jesus paid for my sins. Thus, I am held blameless. What if I listen to my body and not the Spirit and decide in my mind to go ahead and sin? We all know it happens because Christians do things they ought not do. By sinning I have placed myself in danger by getting outside God’s will. I need to ask forgiveness, and for Jesus’ sake, God will forgive me. Here is where many Christians are mistaken…I may be forgiven, but I may not always be excused from being punished for what I did. This is what happened to David in the Old Testament. He sinned, God forgave him, but he had to pay a penalty…the sword did not depart from his house the rest of his life. Sin has consequences even for a Christian.

    I hope this answers your question. You can agree or disagree, that’s your choice. My responsibility is only to say what the Word says, not to try to beat you over the head and make you believe it.
  4. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    06 Jun '06 13:12
    Originally posted by masscat
    What if I listen to my body and not the Spirit and decide in my mind to go ahead and sin?
    Do you ever knowingly choose to listen to your body and not the Spirit? Why would you make that choice fully knowing the consequences?
  5. Joined
    25 Sep '04
    Moves
    1779
    06 Jun '06 14:25
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Do you ever knowingly choose to listen to your body and not the Spirit? Why would you make that choice fully knowing the consequences?
    Of course. Because I'm human. Actually you don't have to physically do something for it to be a sin. Sin covers wrong thinking, bad attitudes, harmful speach, etc. Jesus gave an example that if a man looks on a woman and lusts after her in his heart (mind), it's sin. So, if I choose to look at porn on a web site, or think about the women in the office in a lustful manner, I am chosing to sin even though I may never actually do anything beyond think about it. That's why the Apostle Paul told us to be careful about the things we think on. Our actions start with our thoughts. The Bible does not fail to take notice of our human weaknesses. John said we are not to sin, but if we do, we have an advocate with God in Jesus Christ. He will plead our case if we ask. BTW that does NOT give me the right to go out and sin then say I'll just ask God to forgive me. I think that's where a lot of Christians get all boogered up!
  6. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    06 Jun '06 14:54
    Originally posted by MonsieurGee
    While ruminating in the shower today.I asked myself the retorical question "If people really believe in God then why do they sin?". Surely if someone truely believes in God then there isn't a chance in hell that they are going to sin because it would make no sense to do so. I came up with the answer that people are irrational and therefore don't always t ...[text shortened]... w on what they think, I'm not saying for or against God really, just asking a question.
    I thought you said it was a rhetorical question.
  7. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    06 Jun '06 17:022 edits
    Originally posted by MonsieurGee
    While ruminating in the shower today.I asked myself the retorical question "If people really believe in God then why do they sin?". Surely if someone truely believes in God then there isn't a chance in hell that they are going to sin because it would make no sense to do so. I came up with the answer that people are irrational and therefore don't always t w on what they think, I'm not saying for or against God really, just asking a question.
    Sin is but a deception. Lucifer when he fell was self decieved. In turn, Adam and Eve sinned when they were decieved by lucifer. I started a thread called the totality of reality in which I pointed out that only God sees and hears and knows all things. Conversely, his creation does not because the creator is greater than the created. Therefore, God requires his creation to walk in faith in areas that are "blind spots" to us. If God says to do something you may not fully understand, you take his word for it anyway. This is assuming that you have faith in God as being benevolent and loving and wanting what is best for you in the long run. The danger is when you think that you can out think or know better than the totality of reality and place your needs and desires ahead of God's. I find that rationilization is often a factor which is another type of deception. Anything can be rationalized away if you really want to justify a self serving behavoir badly enough. You can even convince yourself that God agrees with you even though deep down you know this is not the case.

    As far as humans sinning, you should know something. Now that man has fallen he has what is called a "sin nature". God warned man that if he sinned he would die. Now that man has sinned it is appointed man to die physically. Even though your physical man is now functioning, it is failing at the same time and is dying. Your physical man, however, now only wants to attend to its own desires and lusts knowing that it is doomed. Your physical man wants to eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Conversely, your spiritual man, if reborn in Christ, is now alive and can now live forever and wants to focus on things that enhance this position. Now there is a war raging within you. On the one hand, you have your flesh wanting to please itself and on the other the spiritual man focuses on things that pertain to eternal life. It is a struggle that continues until you die and you are only left with your spritual man to live forever. The Bible refers giving into your flesh as being carnally minded. Your endevours, when carnally minded, pertain to this temperal and fading existence. Your investment, as a result, is a big zero in the etermal scheme of things. However, your spritual pursuits that pertain to God's path of life will reap eternal benifits not only for you but for others you encounter. WHichever one you feed the most, or inable, will grow stronger as the other grows weaker. For example, fasting is a way to "weaken" your carnal desires and enhance you spiritual ears, so to speak.
  8. Joined
    09 Mar '06
    Moves
    415
    06 Jun '06 18:54
    Yeh I know I did, I wrote my first entry really hungover. I did realise after i posted it that it wasn't a rhetorical question at all.
  9. Joined
    09 Mar '06
    Moves
    415
    06 Jun '06 19:01
    The sinning part, though it is esential to what I was getting at is also kinda secondary. When God created Adam he was supposed to have created a perfect human, and yet Adam can't have been perfect otherwise why did he eat the forbidden fruit, knowing that there would be serious consequences. By eating the fruit he proved that he wasn't perfect. Which leads to the question of why would God create something imperfect, it doesn't really makes sense.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    06 Jun '06 19:30
    Originally posted by MonsieurGee
    The sinning part, though it is esential to what I was getting at is also kinda secondary. When God created Adam he was supposed to have created a perfect human, and yet Adam can't have been perfect otherwise why did he eat the forbidden fruit, knowing that there would be serious consequences. By eating the fruit he proved that he wasn't perfect. Which le ...[text shortened]... s to the question of why would God create something imperfect, it doesn't really makes sense.
    The Garden of Eden story is only a mythical piece of poetry meant to describe some of the basic ideas about God like the idea that we were once more innocent and childlike and in fellowship with God and have moved away from this. I think you are getting too caught up in literalism. It's a rich piece of literature with layers of meaning and interpretation. I think it's in the Bible because God is trying to communicate to us that our natural state is in fellowship with him and we have forgotten our true nature.

    Maybe Adam was perfect (I don't believe he existed mind you) in his relationship with God but in order to love God freely he would have to have had free will otherwise he would have been merely a perfect robot. If he had free will then this implies that he had the capacity to turn away from God is he so chose to and that's what 'happened'. Maybe Adam (man) was coming of age and becoming self aware (remember how Adam and Eve suddenly realise they were naked - I'm sure a similar process occurred in evolution).

    The Garden of Eden story was supposed to be food for thought in my opinion. In your case it's done it's job , but don't expect it to add up like a mathmatic equation. The questions are more important than the answers.
  11. Joined
    09 Mar '06
    Moves
    415
    06 Jun '06 23:16
    But you could also have free will and do the right thing. I'm looking at it from a literal point of view because I've spoken to a few christians who take the bible to be the literal truth, one guy I know thinks the world is 6000 years old.... I find it difficult to understand where to approach from at times, I like taking a logical and literal approach because on a literal level christianity just has so many flaws in its sacred text.
  12. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    07 Jun '06 00:30
    Originally posted by MonsieurGee
    But you could also have free will and do the right thing. I'm looking at it from a literal point of view because I've spoken to a few christians who take the bible to be the literal truth, one guy I know thinks the world is 6000 years old.... I find it difficult to understand where to approach from at times, I like taking a logical and literal approach because on a literal level christianity just has so many flaws in its sacred text.
    I happen to believe the Genesis account to be literal and perhaps my explaination can help you out. The creationists camp is split between the old earth creationists and the new earth creationists. I happen to be an old earth creationist and do not believe the earth is only 6000 years old. Here is a web site by a phsicist who supports the old earth creationists position

    http://www.worshipradio.com/home/ZolaVideo.html

    One of the points made by Dr. Schroder is that science and religion need not be at odds with each other. However, know that Genesis is not a scientific text as are Darwin's writings not a religious in nature. Therefore, the connection between the two can be difficult to asimulate. He points out, for example, that the ancient Hebrew terms for morning and evening are used no where else in the Bible except during the six days of creation. The term evening can be interpreted "chaos" and morning can be interpreted "order". Then when Adam and Eve come into being the description of time changes and time becomes normal human time again. Inferences can be made in scripture such as Deuteronomy 32:7 "Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations.." Here we see a reference to the days of creation and then human time begining. Also look at Psalms 90:4 that says that a 1000 years to man is but a day to God. Also consider Genesis 2:4 "These are the generations of heaven and of the earth when they were created..." Here we see clues of what a day actually represents. A day is one rotation on its axis as it circles the sun, no? How is it then that the sun was created on day four? Was the author of Genesis just stupid or is there something we are missing here? Don't get me wrong, I do believe the Bible to be literal but only the Hebrew version. The translated version needs some better translating regarding the six days of creation.

    He then goes into a discussion about the expansion of the universe after the Big Bang and the "red shift effect". He correctly states that time can be distorted due to such confounding factors such as mass and velocity. For example, it is estimated that by riding in your car and other modes of transportation such as a plane, you add seconds or minutes to your life span. Dr. Schroder says that every time the universe doubles in size after the Big Bang, time halves. This means that day one lasted about 8 billion years, day 2 lasted about 4 billion years and so forth. First life occured about 3.8 billion years ago during day three. Day 5 is important to note because this was when the "bulk" of creation came into being which science referes to as the Cambrian explosion. Science believes that there was an evolutionary explosion during this time and is when God created the creatures in the sea according to Genesis. If you add up all 6 days of creation, it comes out to be about 15 billion years which is about what scientists estimate the age of the Big Bang to be. To sum up, I do not doubt the findings of evolutionists, but I do not always agree with their conclusions. For example, I am not convinced God uses evolution to create. I am convinced that we were created, however.
  13. Joined
    12 Jun '05
    Moves
    14671
    07 Jun '06 00:381 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    I happen to believe the Genesis account to be literal and perhaps my explaination can help you out. The creationists camp is split between the old earth creationists and the new earth creationists. I happen to be an old earth creationist and do not believe the earth is only 6000 years old. Here is a web site by a phsicist who supports the old earth creati inced God uses evolution to create. I am convinced that we were created, however.
    And here is a well-regarded academic paper on the subject

    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
  14. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    07 Jun '06 02:07
    Originally posted by dottewell
    And here is a well-regarded academic paper on the subject

    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
    LOL. As I said before, I do not hold to the new earth creationists position.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    08 Jun '06 19:08
    Originally posted by MonsieurGee
    But you could also have free will and do the right thing. I'm looking at it from a literal point of view because I've spoken to a few christians who take the bible to be the literal truth, one guy I know thinks the world is 6000 years old.... I find it difficult to understand where to approach from at times, I like taking a logical and literal approach because on a literal level christianity just has so many flaws in its sacred text.
    I personally think that trying to argue against evolution is one of the biggest mistakes the church made. The evidence for it is overwhelming. If you don't believe in evolution as the process for life on earth to exist then you might as well not believe in atomic energy either. Genesis is not literal and it doesn't matter either. The earth is 4 billion years old I'm afraid , however , I'm sure whodey would agree with me on the issue of free will. You cannot give a man real free will and guarantee things will never go astray. That's what free will is I'm afraid.
Back to Top