Originally posted by FabianFnas
So a family of Swedes north of Kiruna cannot be moslems, because (if)their home country is in fact Sweden? They starve to death during the month of ramadan if it happens around summer solstice?

But, yes, in Sweden there is a special kind of Islam (no kidding).

really, what is it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
really, what is it?

I was curious about that myself. I haven't heard of any special breed of
Swedish Muslims, such that you can talk about them having a special kind
of Islam.

Originally posted by Jigtie
The month of ramadan is constantly occurring earlier on the Gregorian
calender due to the Islamic calender having less days (the lunar
calender has 354 days). Last year it began on September 1st. This year
it will begin on August 21st. Eventually, it will again occur in the middle of
winter as it has done before.

This is why Muslims living up here ...[text shortened]... ng
ramadan in the summertime even though the sun hardly ever sets here
at that time of year.

Thanks for the correction ..🙂

Originally posted by Jigtie
I was curious about that myself. I haven't heard of any special breed of
Swedish Muslims, such that you can talk about them having a special kind
of Islam.

I don't know much about it.

Most of moslems in Sweden are the usual ones, of course, but there are moslems who integreate the Swedish culture alongside with their muslem traditions. Some imams from arabic 'churches' complains that some (high) Swedish muslems are not 'real muslems' according to their view and standards.

Don't ask more, I don't know much.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Here in Cape Town there is a dispute about the exact day for Eid (the feast day celebrating the end of Ramadan). I was told by a Muslim friend that there are two possible days for Eid and this causes a split amongst the Muslims here.

During Ramadan you shouldn't eat or drink while the sun is up. Of course in a country where there are both Muslims and n ...[text shortened]... s can be a little unfair on the Muslims as they have to watch other people eating and drinking.

'Unfair' ... a strange word to use when someone is doing something by choice. People belong to a religious group by choice. When Christians fast (by choice) and dont eat food for several weeks, would you say that its unfair to them to have to watch others eat?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I don't know much about it.

Most of moslems in Sweden are the usual ones, of course, but there are moslems who integreate the Swedish culture alongside with their muslem traditions. Some imams from arabic 'churches' complains that some (high) Swedish muslems are not 'real muslems' according to their view and standards.

Don't ask more, I don't know much.

I will have to look that up then. Interesting. 🙂

Originally posted by twhitehead
The Muslims I have talked to do not take these things too literally. ie it more important for them to look at why they fast and not get too bogged down in the details and technicalities. They do take fasting and many of their other practices very seriously but they don't all go overboard.
I remember hearing that some Jews have a rule that you cannot move ...[text shortened]... ily loose sleep over cases where they make a mistake or where there is really no other option.

Talking about not taking things too literally ... do kids have to fast as well from sunrise to sunset? No? Then at what age would it be mandatory ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
'Unfair' ... a strange word to use when someone is doing something by choice. People belong to a religious group by choice. When Christians fast (by choice) and dont eat food for several weeks, would you say that its unfair to them to have to watch others eat?

It is a tricky one.
Firstly, compared to Muslims who live in countries where most people are Muslim, the Muslims here get a raw deal.
Secondly, you are totally wrong in your claim that people choose what religious group to belong to.
Thirdly, Muslims do not fast by choice, they fast because their religion requires it of them - that is not the same thing as a Christian fasting by choice.
And lastly, many of the Muslims I know are in fact children at my sons school and again, they have no choice in the matter.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Talking about not taking things too literally ... do kids have to fast as well from sunrise to sunset? No? Then at what age would it be mandatory ?

I do not know the details, but yes children fast too. I had a friend who's 5 year old son fasted. I don't know what age they start.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It is a tricky one.
Firstly, compared to Muslims who live in countries where most people are Muslim, the Muslims here get a raw deal.
Secondly, you are totally wrong in your claim that people choose what religious group to belong to.
Thirdly, Muslims do not fast by choice, they fast because their religion requires it of them - that is not the same th ...[text shortened]... lims I know are in fact children at my sons school and again, they have no choice in the matter.

Kids seeing others in a school environment eating and they cant, I can understand that being unfair. Maybe the school should have some way of separating them at lunchtime.

Why cant adults choose what religion they belong to? Anyway my question was about you calling it 'unfair', which implies that muslims are disadvangtaged in some way.

If a muslim is a muslim because of peer pressure then he CHOOSES to bow to peer pressure. Its a choice he makes.
If a muslim is a muslim because his parents are muslims then he CHOOSES to please his parents. Its a conscious choice.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I do not know the details, but yes children fast too. I had a friend who's 5 year old son fasted. I don't know what age they start.

5 year olds don't generally fast here (in Indonesia). It starts at maybe 8, more like 10, but I think it gets more 'compulsory' at 13.

When I first worked here 17 years ago, it was a real task to find places to eat during Ramadan. Last few years there have been more and more places 'open', albeit with curtains drawn or an apparently locked door. My Muslim friends estimate 50% strict compliance, 25% patchy compliance. A hefty proportion of Muslims in Java are probably animists in their heart of hearts anyway, but got used to telling local government officials that they were 'Muslim' over the years because picking somethong other than one of the five religions 'guaranteed' by the otherwise secular constitution, is more trouble thatn its worth.

Originally posted by Jigtie
"...they use daylight hours from their own home countries, [b]or the
arab world."[/b]

My thoughts though are this. Fasting during the hours of daylight is specifically mentioned in the Islamic texts but there are no caveats for those times and places where daylight lasts for several months. Choosing to take the hours of a more convenient country has no basis in the religious texts as far as I know and can therefore only have been chosen as way forward by people in the hope that it will be OK.

It seems to me there are three things you can deduce from this problem though I would like to proven wrong. They are that the scriptures are not meant to be taken as literally as we are often told they should be or that the scriptures were actually written by an entity who had no idea that daylight lasts for weeks near the poles or that Muslims should not live in areas where the amount of summer daylight would make them die of thirst.

I find this an interesting problem as it is not one I have ever seen discussed anywhere.

Originally posted by Wheely
My thoughts though are this. Fasting during the hours of daylight is specifically mentioned in the Islamic texts but there are no caveats for those times and places where daylight lasts for several months. Choosing to take the hours of a more convenient country has no basis in the religious texts as far as I know and can therefore only have been chosen as w ...[text shortened]... rst.

I find this an interesting problem as it is not one I have ever seen discussed anywhere.

It is not possible for any religious book to answer every possible question that followers have, nor cater for every scenario. Although, I think part of the answer to this dilema is here :

Surah 2 : 183. O ye who believe! fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint.

184. (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will, it is better for him, and it is better for you, that ye fast, if ye only knew.

185. Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if anyone is ill or on a journey, the prescribed period, (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you, He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

Fasting is to learn self-restraint but it is not intended for it to put you in difficulty. A commonsense approach in my opinion, if you live in an area with significantly unequal days and nights is to fast for 12 hours.

Originally posted by Wheely
My thoughts though are this. Fasting during the hours of daylight is specifically mentioned in the Islamic texts but there are no caveats for those times and places where daylight lasts for several months. Choosing to take the hours of a more convenient country has no basis in the religious texts as far as I know and can therefore only have been chosen as w ...[text shortened]... rst.

I find this an interesting problem as it is not one I have ever seen discussed anywhere.

LOL! I guess you're making a good point about religious devotion here.
Do they stay true to the scripture or do they allow for some lee-way and
therefore risk the wrath of Allah?

From the Qur'an 2:185:

Al-Baqara
The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for
mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right
and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month,
and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same)
number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not
hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period,
and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that
peradventure ye may be thankful.

You will note that it doesn't specifically say you can eat after dark has
settled (though there may be other sections where this is brought up).
I'm guessing (really guessing) that this "must fast during daylight"-part
is from one of hadiths, in which case it would be more flexible.

Also, note that Allah "desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for
you". This, in my own interpretation, says that as long as you commit to
fasting during this month, and praise Allah from the heart, you will be
ok. It's all about the devotion. Not so much the daylight.

But I could be wrong. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Muslim scholar on
board here, who could tell us all about these things? 🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
It is not possible for any religious book to answer every possible question that followers have, nor cater for every scenario. Although, I think part of the answer to this dilema is here :

[i]Surah 2 : 183. O ye who believe! fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint.

184. (Fasting) for a ...[text shortened]... ion, if you live in an area with significantly unequal days and nights is to fast for 12 hours.

Why'd you have to go and post so fast? 😛

Good post.