1. Subscribersonhouse
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    30 Sep '05 19:15
    How can you who believe in creationism be blind to the idea that
    if there is a god and god created the universe, what possible reason
    could you have for deciding god could not have made the universe
    specifically with the idea of making life come about through
    evolution? The idea that maybe a god created the universe with
    all the physics rules precast with all the attributes needed to allow
    life to form on its own. Creationists are arrogantly inserting their
    own interpretation of what a possible god would or would not have
    done during the design of a whole universe. What is more wonderful
    about a universe where a god set up things so incredibly fine-tuned
    right from the beginning as to make it possible for lfe to exist here?
    So you allow for an omnipotent god but you think this god is so
    limited as to require its presence along every step of the evolution
    to this point in time making us who we are today. So God like gets
    a weekly report, being too limited to know what will be happening
    in ten million years and has to jump start each evolutionary step,
    personally involving itself in the day to day creation of not only the
    universe but realizing it made an imperfect one, having to constantly
    tweek it in order to make the so-called higher life forms.
    How unutterly arrogant to think you know the attributes of god.
    You refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence such a god fine-tuned
    the universe to such a wonderful degree that it doesn't NEED
    constant supervision to lead to us.
  2. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    01 Oct '05 21:23
    Specifically outlining the difference between creationism and biblical creationism. Most argumentative Christians demand belief in biblical creationism and then try to prove plain everyday creationism somehow considering the "biblical" part given. The arrogance comes in with the steadfast belief that their perception of God is the true perception and there cannot be any other one. With this as a premise, then proof that God, or some "intelligent architect," created the universe can only mean that the Bible is true, which is also an assumed given, so I don't know why they even both to open their mouths on the subject. To attempt to porve faith is to show doubt in that faith which only undermines their own structure. It only goes to show that human beings are certainly not rational creatures.

    ... --- ...
  3. Joined
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    02 Oct '05 03:50
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    Specifically outlining the difference between creationism and biblical creationism. Most argumentative Christians demand belief in biblical creationism and then try to prove plain everyday creationism somehow considering the "biblical" part given. The arrogance comes in with the steadfast belief that their perception of God is the true perception an ...[text shortened]... ure. It only goes to show that human beings are certainly not rational creatures.

    ... --- ...
    Most argumentative Christians demand belief in biblical creationism and then try to prove plain everyday creationism somehow considering the "biblical" part given.

    yes. good point. the fallacy of "bloated conclusions." they argue for creationism in general and then conclude that the Christian God in particular exists. it is a bloated conclusion something like the following:

    1. a watch exists.
    2. the watch is far too complicated and intricate and ordered to not be the work of a maker of watches.
    3. therefore, Bulova exists.
  4. Earth Prime
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    02 Oct '05 04:35
    Okay.... so you're saying "Why don't you just think that there is a God, but he might have planned evolution the way evolutionists see it?"

    To answer your question, because Genesis 1 says that God created it. He said it, and it was so. If the first chapter is wrong, it means the whole book could be. Where do you draw the line between this claim, and saying "Well yeah, Jesus did come and die on the cross, but maybe it only covers part of your sin. You still must give enough money to the church to go to heaven"?
  5. Standard membertelerion
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    02 Oct '05 04:44
    If the first chapter is wrong, it means the whole book could be.

    Good point.
  6. Standard memberOmnislash
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    02 Oct '05 05:39
    I see no reason why evolution and creation must conflict. I see no reason why a creationist must assert that God created man just the way he is today. Such a position is fallacious by nature, as its validation lies solely with the individual’s perception and/or popular opinion. This can make for quite the pretense. The converse is likewise true of those who accept evolution and would (do) attempt to utilize the theories therein as validation for the dispute of creationism. I have read nothing in the Bible which lead me to believe that evolution does not exist. Quite to the contrary in fact. If one accepts the scriptures as a truthful account of the origins of man, then once can not knowingly deny the evolution and/or devolution of mankind truthfully.

    What makes more sense, creation of a creature that can adapt or one that can’t?

    Just my two cents. Take it or leave it.

    Best Regards,
    Omnislash
  7. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    02 Oct '05 06:27
    Originally posted by Coconut
    Okay.... so you're saying "Why don't you just think that there is a God, but he might have planned evolution the way evolutionists see it?"

    To answer your question, because Genesis 1 says that God created it. He said it, and it was so. If the first chapter is wrong, it means the whole book could be. Where do you draw the line between this claim, and s ...[text shortened]... only covers part of your sin. You still must give enough money to the church to go to heaven"?
    Where it stops contradicting years of scientific research and attempting to plunge us into the dark ages once again?
  8. Standard memberUmbrageOfSnow
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    02 Oct '05 06:28
    Originally posted by Coconut
    Okay.... so you're saying "Why don't you just think that there is a God, but he might have planned evolution the way evolutionists see it?"

    To answer your question, because Genesis 1 says that God created it. He said it, and it was so. If the first chapter is wrong, it means the whole book could be. Where do you draw the line between this claim, and s ...[text shortened]... only covers part of your sin. You still must give enough money to the church to go to heaven"?
    But the Bible contradicts itself all the time, or is just outright wrong...
    MATT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    LUKE 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
    --
    LEVITICUS 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you

    Rabbits do NOT chew cud. Clearly the Bible is wrong here and could be wrong everywhere. Christians have never had much of a problem admitting parts of the bible were wrong, and on the other hand have executed people as heretics for contradicting the church even when the belief was never mentioned in the bible.

    Also, I've always had trouble with this belief that the bible is the direct word of god and infallible. It was written down by man, who is supposedly inherently sinful, imperfect, and wrong, and has been passed down for thousands of years and retranslated and rewritten. How is there any hope that it is the actual word of god?

    And why would the word of god cover so many stories and books like Numbers, etc. Why would he bother?

    And as for arguing about the order of creation meaning you have to argue against evolution, things were created in a different order for Genesis 1 to Genesis 2. Yet another contradiction.
  9. Standard memberOmnislash
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    02 Oct '05 08:46
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    But the Bible contradicts itself all the time, or is just outright wrong...
    MATT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    LUKE 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
    --
    LEVITICUS 11:6 And the hare, be ...[text shortened]... things were created in a different order for Genesis 1 to Genesis 2. Yet another contradiction.
    While I appreciate your general premise, I think your assertion that "the bible contradicts itself all the time, or is just outright wrong" is a bit inflammatory. I would be certain of my comprehensive and extensive understanding of the scriptures I am speaking about before making such an inflammatory claim, especially if my stance is that of a non-believer speaking to believers. To do so otherwise is an exercise in futility.

    On that note I will simply state that I disagree with your perception of things, and offer counsel that perhaps not all of your points are entirely relevant to the point at hand. As I said before I appreciate your premise, in the sense that theological doctrine is ill suited for use as a counter arguement against evolutionary theory. As I stated in my previous post, I have found the two to be supportive of each other and do not understand the apparently common predication that only one of these theories can be valid.

    Best Regards,
    Omnislash
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    03 Oct '05 07:25
    Originally posted by Omnislash
    While I appreciate your general premise, I think your assertion that "the bible contradicts itself all the time, or is just outright wrong" is a bit inflammatory. I would be certain of my comprehensive and extensive understanding of the scriptures I am speaking about before making such an inflammatory claim, especially if my stance is that of a non-beli ...[text shortened]... ly common predication that only one of these theories can be valid.

    Best Regards,
    Omnislash
    Just so I understand you better, tell me what those two theories are,
    if you would be so kind. There are several versions of ID, just
    wondered where you are with that.
  11. Tsandi
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    05 Oct '05 13:201 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How can you who believe in creationism be blind to the idea that
    if there is a god and god created the universe, what possible reason
    could you have for deciding god could not have made the universe
    specifically with the idea of making life come about through
    evolution? The idea that maybe a god created the universe with
    all the physics rules precast ...[text shortened]... e universe to such a wonderful degree that it doesn't NEED
    constant supervision to lead to us.
    I would say creation as set-out in the bible in genesis is the way it happened, and I mean literally, exactly as in 24 hr days. If God says it so, then it is so.

    Need for evidence is insufficient to overturn the creator's version of the story.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    05 Oct '05 13:23
    Originally posted by zombies
    If God says it so, then it is so.
    If God had said so, God would have written in the first person.
  13. Tsandi
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    05 Oct '05 13:311 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    If God had said so, God would have written in the first person.
    John 4:24
    God is a spirit, and those who worship him must do so in spirit and truth.

    the world here in physical form is man's and man has dominion over it, and all that is within it, so God goes through the owner of the physical and establishes what already exists in the spirit.

    Which is why the Devil can't show up as a person, but must influence the minds of men to do his will, and no spirit has dominion over anything in the earth except through the will of men.

    So that's why God via the His Spirit, moved the spirit of men to write what He tells them.
  14. Standard memberorfeo
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    05 Oct '05 14:19
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How can you who believe in creationism be blind to the idea that
    if there is a god and god created the universe, what possible reason
    could you have for deciding god could not have made the universe
    specifically with the idea of making life come about through
    evolution? The idea that maybe a god created the universe with
    all the physics rules precast ...[text shortened]... e universe to such a wonderful degree that it doesn't NEED
    constant supervision to lead to us.
    Even with the 'Biblical' form of creationism, you still have to believe that the universe was 'fine tuned' as you put it. You don't only need the conditions to create life, you need the conditions to SUSTAIN life.

    It's no good having the right start-up conditions - like, say, a rather amazing liquid that has all sorts of unlikely properties and covers two-thirds of the surface of a nice internally warmed planet circling a stable sun - if those conditions don't stick around. So the fine tuning is just as wonderful for either form of creationism.

    I'm curious, is this leading to a suggestion that God upped and left once he was done? That he set everything in motion and then went away?
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    05 Oct '05 14:361 edit
    Originally posted by orfeo
    I'm curious, is this leading to a suggestion that God upped and left once he was done? That he set everything in motion and then went away?
    In theistic moods I'm inclined to believe that the universe is the manifestation of God trying to realise itself. People are here to help God out.

    God had to pull himself out of the slime...
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