Atonement

Originally posted by jaywill
It is not easy. Some skeptics will walk away saying "It still doesn't make sense to me."

I understand that.

All forgiveness is not righteous forgiveness.
All forms of forgiveness are not equally RIGHT or equally righteous.

I may forgive you in a way which is sloppy and encourages you to commit the same crime against me again. This kind of ...[text shortened]... ce against sins.
Lost has be incurred and cost has been paid to atone for those sins.

God never forgives man.

Why because God never condemned man in the first place.

This is a false Christian belief that God judges man and condemns him.

The law of karma works silently in the back ground returning the results of man,s deeds.

If man sins .........his reactions to that sin will come back to him as the law of karma dictates.

An intelligent man will learn from this.

Advancing in the spiritual life takes place when the person embraces true religion and raises his consciousness to the platform of love of God.

There is no condemnation and no forgiveness taking place.

If anything ........God has forgiven us our errors in advance before the error has been made.

Originally posted by Dasa
God never forgives man.

Why because God never condemned man in the first place.

This is a false Christian belief that God judges man and condemns him.

The law of karma works silently in the back ground returning the results of man,s deeds.

If man sins .........his reactions to that sin will come back to him as the law of karma dictates.

An intell ...[text shortened]...

If anything ........God has forgiven us our errors in advance before the error has been made.

But the law of karma does punish sin then.

So how exactly does that work?

Who put the law of Karma in place?

Who decides what is sin?

Who decides if a sin has been committed?

Who then decides how that sin is "returned" to that "man"?

Does this include women too?

You seem to postulate much and substantiate or explain very little.

Originally posted by Dasa
God never forgives man.

Why because God never condemned man in the first place.

This is a false Christian belief that God judges man and condemns him.

The law of karma works silently in the back ground returning the results of man,s deeds.

If man sins .........his reactions to that sin will come back to him as the law of karma dictates.

An intell ...[text shortened]...

If anything ........God has forgiven us our errors in advance before the error has been made.

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God never forgives man.
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You may only speak for yourself. You can legitimately say that you Dasa, have never been forgiven by God.

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Why because God never condemned man in the first place.
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If your own human conscience condemns you on something, you may be pretty sure that God knows everything, and you have offended Him also.

Does your own conscience bother you concerning anything ?
That is a device that God created within you to let you know that something is wrong.

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This is a false Christian belief that God judges man and condemns him.
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It is the truth. But there is not only condemnation. There is complete forgiveness, and forgetting on God's behalf. There is abundant forgiveness and reconciliation.

You are living a terrible illusion if you think it is impossible for you to transgress the law of God.

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The law of karma works silently in the back ground returning the results of man,s deeds.
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There are also consquences for actions. But aside from these, there is real guilt based on real offenses.

Though there may be some kind of "karma" or cycle of consequences in Christian thought as well, that does not mean there is no sin against God Himself.

You think you have a deeper and more mystic view. But it is not. There is nothing more penetrating or profound then the word of God in the Holy Bible.

And you can come up with no one else like Jesus of Nazareth who demonstrated the reality of life. You have no one to testify to the truth of God as strongly as Jesus did.

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If man sins .........his reactions to that sin will come back to him as the law of karma dictates.
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I do not deny that there are certain consequences for our actions. But this, which you choose to call karma, does not mean that it is impossible to sin against God.

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An intelligent man will learn from this.
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It is true that an intelligent man learns from the consequences of his actions. There is no denying of that.

But that does not mean that there is no REAL guilt because of REAL sins against God.

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Advancing in the spiritual life takes place when the person embraces true religion and raises his consciousness to the platform of love of God.
====================================

The love of God is more real to me upon seeing His salvation of taking into Himself, in the Son of God, the JUST penalty for my sins.

In this work of Jesus Christ, the love of God is more manifested. There is no comparison. However, it is not altogether wrong to say that our actions have consequences from which we may learn.

This too could be considered His love. That is an internal breaking system along the way, keeping us from sliding down too much.

Yes, you do not have to be a believer in God to have a "breaking system" warning you through consequences. But there is also a last judgment between the sinner and God to be reckoned with.

His record is infallible concerning what we said and did. There is no mistake in His recording. Every careless word you uttered is recorded.

You need the blood of Jesus Christ as the grand eraser. You need the blood of Christ which testifies that Christ bore in Himself the judgment for your sins on His cross.

Any karma cannot cleanse you as the redemption of God's Son can cleanse you.

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There is no condemnation and no forgiveness taking place.

If anything ........God has forgiven us our errors in advance before the error has been made.
=====================================

The advancement is into the image of His Son by our beholding and reflecting Him. But we must be reconciled to God first. There must be a life relationship. And for that you need forgiveness and regeneration.

Then having been regenerated and made alive in the born again human spirit, you may behold and reflect Christ within in order to be transformed into His image.

"But whenever it [the heart] turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:16-18)

That is a verse on transformation from one degree of glory to another.
Here is another verse on transformation by the renewing of the mind:

"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Romans 12:2)


And another verse on God's plan to conform His sons to the image of Christ:

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who ove God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Because those whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom 8:28,29)

Jesus Christ will be the FIRSTBORN Son of God among many brothers conformed and transformed into His own image.

There are many many passages on transformation, conformation, glorification, sanctification, and deification. For these are all a part of God's eternal purpose to present each believer without blemish or spot before Him.

"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us to sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4-6)

Here is another verse on putting on the NEW MAN in the process of transformation:

"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his practices And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all and in all." (Col. 3:9-13)

Being transformed through the Spirit of Christ is putting on the NEW MAN. And in putting on this new man created in the image of Christ, social distinctions that have divided people are overcome.

This we are experiencing:

www.localchurches.org

You cannot come up with a belief more profound then the Gospel of Christ. You may think that you have something more insightful and profound. But it is child's play and with some wrong teachings.

Don't even try to impress me that you really understand the Gospel of Christ. Don't try to impress me that you have the inside story and REALLY know what I believe. You don't.

And you have nothing more profound to offer me. You have nothing as splendid as Jesus the Son of God or His work of salvation.

Originally posted by divegeester
But the law of karma does punish sin then.

So how exactly does that work?

Who put the law of Karma in place?

Who decides what is sin?

Who decides if a sin has been committed?

Who then decides how that sin is "returned" to that "man"?

Does this include women too?

You seem to postulate much and substantiate or explain very little.

The law of karma does punish for sin.

When you commit the sin (error) of putting your hand in fire your karma is instant and the error is rewarded by having a painful burn.

When this happens you do not do it again because you have learnt.

Intelligent persons do not put the hand in the fire in the first place.

The Vedas have been instructing mankind for eternity (what to do and what not to do) for advancing in spiritual life and developing love for God, but man is puffed up and arrogant and does not follow (this is putting hand in fire) and he then suffers for the materialism he engages in at the hand of his karma.

God does not punish.

God is not a punisher .....this is a false Christian and Islamic belief to scare the people into submission.

The Vedas do not tell you God is a punisher and that God will condemn you.

Christianity does this to have emotional control over you.

Islam also does this.

The Vedas have the person come to God in love....not fear.

The Vedas carefully instruct mankind how to live a karma free life and how to love God but man is not concerned and repeatedly puts his hand in fire.

The fire in this case is...... meat eating, killing, intoxication, drugs, corruption, learning atheistic subjects, learning subjects to create vast amounts of wealth.
cheating, lying, speculation, illicit sex, false religion, materialistic endeavouring for unnecessary things, believing in falsity to support atheism, teaching the children falsity and so on.

The things that the person should do is........control the mind and senses and not do the things in the first list, but most important the people must live a spiritual life and learn how to appreciate spiritual subjects and how to develop love for God which is all described in the eternal teachings of the Vedas which is the only bonafide religion.

Islam Christianity and Judaism are false religions only created a few thousand years ago by unqualified persons........so these religions should be avoided because they do not have transcendental knowledge but teach falsity, and the proof is they all support animal cruelty and the Vedas support animal welfare. (that is only one reason there are many more)

The person wanting to understand all of this must be qualified to ask the right questions and a challenging insincere attitude does not serve them to accomplish this.

If persons asked questions about spirituality in a sincere manner they would get detailed answers and a complete response but there are no persons asking in this manner at all........instead they treat the subject of religion and spirituality with contempt even though they have made the effort to come across to the spirituality forum from the other forums.

You cannot sin against God.

You can only sin against yourself and your brother.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
God never forgives man.
====================================

You may only speak for yourself. You can legitimately say that you Dasa, have never been forgiven by God.

===============================
Why because God never condemned man in the first place.
=================================== have nothing as splendid as Jesus the Son of God or His work of salvation.[/b]

I do not transgress Gods law.

Why would you conclude this?

Of course there are consequences for actions.............I have not said otherwise.

Could you at least be honest in with comments.

You are stating things from thin air that don't exist.

What is wrong with you Sir?

The Gospel of Christ is a meat eaters religion complied by the meat eaters for the meat eaters and has done a great disservice to Lord Jesus.

jaywill

Are you a man of the clergy?

Originally posted by Dasa
jaywill

Are you a man of the clergy?

No, I am not a "man of the clergy."

Are you now sitting in the lotus position ?

Originally posted by Dasa
I do not transgress Gods law.

Why would you conclude this?

Of course there are consequences for actions.............I have not said otherwise.

Could you at least be honest in with comments.

You are stating things from thin air that don't exist.

What is wrong with you Sir?

The Gospel of Christ is a meat eaters religion complied by the meat eaters for the meat eaters and has done a great disservice to Lord Jesus.

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Could you at least be honest in with comments.
==============================

I have not been anything but honest with you in my comments.

You're talking like some kind of paranoid mental case.
And that TOO is my honest comment to your above accusation.

Originally posted by Dasa
The law of karma does punish for sin.

When you commit the sin (error) of putting your hand in fire your karma is instant and the error is rewarded by having a painful burn.

When this happens you do not do it again because you have learnt.

Intelligent persons do not put the hand in the fire in the first place.

The Vedas have been instructing mankind ...[text shortened]... er forums.

You cannot sin against God.

You can only sin against yourself and your brother.

I don't know why I bothered.

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't know why I bothered.

If you constantly embrace dishonesty you will learn nothing.

Stop defending animal slaughter and that's a start in becoming honest.

Originally posted by Dasa
If you constantly embrace dishonesty you will learn nothing. Stop defending animal slaughter and that's a start in becoming honest.

If there is no one listening, a busker will change his tune.

Originally posted by divegeester
If there is no one listening, a busker will change his tune.

What is your definition of animal slaughter? Can you quote from
your Holy writings were your god says man is not permitted to eat
animals for food?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What is your definition of animal slaughter? Can you quote from
your Holy writings were your god says man is not permitted to eat
animals for food?

Try asking vishvahetu/dasa.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What is your definition of animal slaughter? Can you quote from
your Holy writings were your god says man is not permitted to eat
animals for food?

Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Originally posted by Dasa
Thou Shalt Not Kill.

That sounds like the God of the Holy Bible. I was talking about the
Hindu god and the Hindu holy writings. Where do they say anything
about not eating animals for food.