Bad Attitude

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Just for the record - those were British, not British-Americans giving out those blankets.

Were these blankets posted over from Britain or distributed by British people who had emigrated to and wished to settle in America at the expense of the Native Americans and whose descendants, with those of immigrants from other parts of Europe, became the white Americans we now know and love but have trouble making sense of sometimes?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
So, if you were god you would allow all the suffering. Not very nice of god if that is the case.
=====================================

Take your own life joe for an example.

Now, you no doubt have had a lot of unpleasant suffering, right? I mean this God has allowed you much suffering over the year ...[text shortened]... ly NOTHING in all your years for which you could conceivably be thankful to God for?[/b]

Because there is no god, you are correct.

Originally posted by 667joe
So, if you were god you would allow all the suffering. Not very nice of god if that is the case.

i might not care. or i might allow it to happen so as not to interfere with humans living their own lives, growing, progressing.

or maybe i cannot be asked to do something you won't do.
have you ever wondered why god is considered a jerk for allowing people doing bad things, while most of the people complaining about this won't lift a finger to help someone getting mugged on the street? there were numerous studies, tv shows, etc that featured someone lying in the middle of the street as if hurt or dying and cars just drove by. people getting fake mugged and passers by just watching. not even calling the police.


get it straight. i (if i were god) am not any more responsible for the evil in the world than a parent who raised his child properly is responsible for that child turning out a thief or a murderer.

what purpose does life has if all your hardships are solved by god?

Originally posted by finnegan
Now there is a very bizarre yet often stated belief. If I was a Jew in Auschwitz, a Kulak in Stalin's Russia, a Chinese peasant in the path of Japanese aggression, a Chinese teacher in the path of Mao's Cultural Revolution, a Cambodian confronted by the Khmer Rouge killing machine, an American Indian in the path of the white American guns or receiving their ...[text shortened]... be that and more suffering as self induced displays a level of casuistry that is breathtaking.

aa, the old atheist question: "if god is good, why would he create a universe filled with so much suffering"
here is an answer for you: "if god wasn't good, why would he create a universe at all?"

you are an atheist, but in arguing against god you use the most fundamentalist christian (religious in general) views you can find. which are really hard to defend by me (and i believe in god). but evolution did happen. big bang(or some equivalent) did happen. why is it so hard to accept a middle ground between an atheist view and a fundamentalist view: god is not the bad engineer that designs a machine that needs tweaking constantly. god doesn't intentionally create funky diseases. god doesn't make volcanoes erupt or hurricanes to strike. god created a system that runs itself. diseases appeared of course but so did cures. volcanoes and hurricanes ravage from time to time but good comes out of it too and humans were given intelligence to deal with it.

to think that god is causing suffering is to believe he has nothing better to do than to fuk with you personally. that is a sign of a weak person. the weak person gets cancer and blames god and whines. the strong person gets cancer and bears through chemo and if he should die, he will die with dignity knowing he lived his life until then and perhaps impacted in a good way the lives of others.

Originally posted by 667joe
So, if you were god you would allow all the suffering. Not very nice of god if that is the case.

So when in our history of life on this earth should God have corrected all our problems?

Believers seldom blame god if things go wrong. They make excuses for him. But.... when everything goes right, they give him credit. God has a pretty good job description.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
aa, the old atheist question: "if god is good, why would he create a universe filled with so much suffering"
here is an answer for you: "if god wasn't good, why would he create a universe at all?"

you are an atheist, but in arguing against god you use the most fundamentalist christian (religious in general) views you can find. which are really hard to wing he lived his life until then and perhaps impacted in a good way the lives of others.

Apologies for jumping in before Finnegan but...
aa, the old atheist question: "if god is good, why would he create a universe filled with so much suffering"
here is an answer for you: "if god wasn't good, why would he create a universe at all?"
That's not really an answer...nasty god could create universe with us in it for self amusement.

you are an atheist, but in arguing against god you use the most fundamentalist christian (religious in general) views you can find. which are really hard to defend by me (and i believe in god). but evolution did happen. big bang(or some equivalent) did happen. why is it so hard to accept a middle ground between an atheist view and a fundamentalist view: god is not the bad engineer that designs a machine that needs tweaking constantly. god doesn't intentionally create funky diseases. god doesn't make volcanoes erupt or hurricanes to strike. god created a system that runs itself. diseases appeared of course but so did cures. volcanoes and hurricanes ravage from time to time but good comes out of it too and humans were given intelligence to deal with it.

The extent to which no middle ground is possible depends upon the attributes one chooses to pin upon said god. If one talks about an uncaring deistic god who set up this system and let it run it's course then though there is little requirement to invoke the notion, it is not wholly un-tenable. On the other hand if one adopts any approximation of the childish infinitely powerful/benevolent/knowledgeable notion of god who sent himself to die for himself to pay for a toll levied by itself then there can be no middle ground. If god is omnipotent then it would be both trivial and effortless to eliminate cancers, rapists, volcanoes, etc.

to think that god is causing suffering is to believe he has nothing better to do than to fuk with you personally. that is a sign of a weak person. the weak person gets cancer and blames god and whines. the strong person gets cancer and bears through chemo and if he should die, he will die with dignity knowing he lived his life until then and perhaps impacted in a good way the lives of others.
For a god with any qualities assigned to it which would make it possible, with negligible effort, for it to bring an end to such suffering, then failure to do so really is fu<king with people, and anyone who believes in such a god is not weak at all for questioning it's inactivity.

Originally posted by Agerg
Apologies for jumping in before Finnegan but...
[b]aa, the old atheist question: "if god is good, why would he create a universe filled with so much suffering"
here is an answer for you: "if god wasn't good, why would he create a universe at all?"
That's not really an answer...nasty god could create universe with us in it for self amusement.

you ...[text shortened]... anyone who believes in such a god is not weak at all for questioning it's inactivity.

how can you eliminate rapists without eliminating free will? what would be there to do in life if there are no hardships? what use is this universe experiment if he keeps intervening in every single aspect of it?


atheists and fundamentalists are similiar in this aspec. they both have this notion of god where he must intervene constantly to make it work, he must be evil if he won't wipe the booboo everytime you scrape your knee, he must be blamed for every good or bad thing in the universe.

god created a universe. he let it run its course. somwhere along the line he may have intervened to make monkeys evolve bigger brains and fling less poop. life is about lessons. if nothing happens to you, you learn nothing.

why do you insist god is responsible for your well being? are you weak or incapacitated? is he responsible for your happiness? should he give you everything you want and if so should he give everyone everything they want? what would that world be like? what happens when i want something you want? who gets it? what happens to the child that constantly asks and gets candy from his parents?
why do you ask something you will not do for your children. and before you go around telling that you are not god and omnipotent, there are some things you can do for your child. for example you can wipe his ass until the "child" is 40. why don't you do that? you can for example spoon feed him so he doesn't have to get a job and try on his own.

you as an atheist preach self reliance. make your own way in life. why does that have to change if a god enters the equation? why does it mean that should god exist, he would be required to make life easier for you?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
atheists and fundamentalists are similiar in this aspec. they both have this notion of god where he must intervene constantly to make it work, he must be evil if he won't wipe the booboo everytime you scrape your knee, he must be blamed for every good or bad thing in the universe.

It is not a 'notion' but a logical conclusion, that if God is both omnipotent and good, he would minimize suffering. Your only possible counter argument is to remove parts of the equation ie:
1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is not good.
3. Suffering is good.
You have hinted at 3, yet I am willing to bet that you too support laws against rape - essentially proving that you do not believe what you preach.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
how can you eliminate rapists without eliminating free will? what would be there to do in life if there are no hardships? what use is this universe experiment if he keeps intervening in every single aspect of it?


atheists and fundamentalists are similiar in this aspec. they both have this notion of god where he must intervene constantly to make it work ? why does it mean that should god exist, he would be required to make life easier for you?

how can you eliminate rapists without eliminating free will? what would be there to do in life if there are no hardships? what use is this universe experiment if he keeps intervening in every single aspect of it?
Ooh lets see!...perhaps God could give them the "p!ssing razor blades" sensation down below and a nasty head ache every time the thought of raping a person enters their mind? How about hitting them with a strong yet transient bout of narcolepsy, perhaps god could infuse the victim with extra strength to fend off the attacker or make said victim look like the attackers grandma (from attackers perspective)...I might get back to you with a whole list of trivial things omnipotent and omni-benevolent god could do to prevent rapes occuring. :]

As for the rest of your post you make the mistake (as Twitehead points out) of ignoring the conclusions one is forced to arrive at given the premise of omnipotent and perfectly good God in favour of berating me for having what you think is a desire that god should step in and hold the tissues whilst I blow my nose every time I catch cold.
Again, if god really is "omni- everything awesome" as it seems you believe then to live up to such claims it should eliminate the requirement for a nose to be blown in the first place.

Your catch-all argument that suffering helps us learn is weak. What is learnt by a rape victim who is subsequently murdered by her attacker Zahlanzi?
What is learnt by a child who fails in one instance to look both ways before crossing the road and is denied the chance of not failing to look both ways ever again by being flattened?
What is learnt by having severe brain damage as a result of a stroke?

Need I continue?