Originally posted by ThinkOfOneChildren are not remarkably honest. They are blunt until they are socialized into the niceties of society. But they also lie like a rug when it suits them.
Why the assumption of "no consideration for the other"?
What is the essence of the "other"? Ultimately what does the bodhisattva want to achieve? How is this achieved? By any means possible?
EDIT:Are you so certain that you didn't learn that honesty and compassion are not compatible from society? Think of young children. They are remarkably honest until they are taught otherwise.
Not to be talking to myself, but ...
I thought the whole notion of baptising the dead was bizarre until I read Rev's post about babies. I would have loved such a thing to happen, and would have seen it as an acknowledgment that my baby was a person with a soul and someone who mattered, even if that life only mattered to an incredibly tiny number of people.
Originally posted by pawnhandlerNicely said.
Not to be talking to myself, but ...
I thought the whole notion of baptising the dead was bizarre until I read Rev's post about babies. I would have loved such a thing to happen, and would have seen it as an acknowledgment that my baby was a person with a soul and someone who mattered, even if that life only mattered to an incredibly tiny number of people.
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Originally posted by pawnhandlerI would have said socialized into the "delusions" of society.
Children are not remarkably honest. They are blunt until they are socialized into the niceties of society. But they also lie like a rug when it suits them.
I find them remarkably honest compared to "adults". At least until they've been properly "socialized".
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI disagree that children learn to lie from adults. I think it comes naturally.
I would have said socialized into the "delusions" of society.
I find them remarkably honest compared to "adults". At least until they've been properly "socialized".
However I have noticed a very disturbing tendency for adults to lie constantly and excessively to children. I think that they feel they can get away with it so go all out. Also, a couple of weekends back my son had a visitor who was several years younger than him. He discovered that he could lie to her and get away with it. He immediately started lying nonstop just to see how far he could go. I asked him why and he effectively said "because I can, and its amusing".
I suspect that most people would lie much more if they thought that there would be no negative consequences.
Originally posted by vistesdI really wasn't thinking of the "spiritual" realm here, though with what I had written I can see how you might think that. It was seriously vague. I'll try to elaborate.
Well, perhaps I should have assumed that you and I were not as far apart as I thought initially—we seldom have been.
[b]I know this is a cheap example, but I'm sure you can extrapolate the idea into other situations.
It’s a good example. Another one would be enabling an alcoholic or addict.
It is your last question here that I think ...[text shortened]... n reference to realization; "clear" is perhaps a better, and less presumptuous word.[/b]
When I think of being freed from "delusions/suffering", I think of being freed from a self-centered construct that desires to "feel good" and/or avoid "feeling bad". I see this construct as distorting "reality" in order achieve its desires. I see an "awakening" occurring when one is able escape this construct to seek "reality" instead. On the "What is truth?" thread, I defined "truth" as the ultimate reality which is eternal and unchanging. It seems that one must operate within the realm of truth to effect any true "awakening" or "healing".
Reading this over, I'm not sure this is much better, but I find it difficult to articulate.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell, I was using the word “spiritual” in a very general sense; if one wants to think of Zen in terms of psychology and philosophy, that’s okay. At the very least, we are talking about some deep psychology here.
I really wasn't thinking of the "spiritual" realm here, though with what I had written I can see how you might think that. It was seriously vague. I'll try to elaborate.
When I think of being freed from "delusions/suffering", I think of being freed from a self-centered construct that desires to "feel good" and/or avoid "feeling bad". I see this constru ...[text shortened]... 'm not sure this is much better, but I find it difficult to articulate.
Reading this over, I'm not sure this is much better, but I find it difficult to articulate.
That’s because it is difficult to articulate. Welcome to the club! When I try to do it sans the Zen Buddhist jargon/shorthand, and somebody like Palynka or Sepia Tint* gets it—after helping me, with cogent criticism, make corrections—it makes my day. It’s hard work though (for me anyway), and I’ll probably return to the shorthand...
* I think Sepia Tint got it; I’m not sure he agreed with it. In any event, his criticisms helped me greatly in later attempts at articulation (and have led me to be a bit more cautious about that term “bedrock” ). I cite this first attempt, not because I think it was a good one (I think it was not), but because the criticisms by ST and others forced me to dig deeper—
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=75134&page=1