Originally posted by menace71 All Human governments or systems have their good points and bad points. They all fail however because humans run them.
Failure can only be measured when you have a stated aim. I think you would find that almost all government are quite successful in achieving many of their stated aims, though they of course continually strive to do better and frequently state virtually unachievable aims.
However I find it quite unreasonable for you to call all governments 'failures' without at least stating what they have failed at.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie Yes, Christ and early Christians were absolutely apolitical, for his Kingdom was no part of this world.
But didn't God set up a government for the children of Israel? As I recall, it consisted of judges to hear dispute between the people.
In addition, just because politics is of this world, so is the public police force and judicial system etc. Does that then mean we are prohibited from participating in them?
Originally posted by twhitehead Failure can only be measured when you have a stated aim. I think you would find that almost all government are quite successful in achieving many of their stated aims, though they of course continually strive to do better and frequently state virtually unachievable aims.
However I find it quite unreasonable for you to call all governments 'failures' without at least stating what they have failed [b]at.[/b]
LOL ok after reading what you said not all governments are failures. They do have success in what their aims are. All forms of government do have their flaws however is that better.
Originally posted by whodey But didn't God set up a government for the children of Israel? As I recall, it consisted of judges to hear dispute between the people.
In addition, just because politics is of this world, so is the public police force and judicial system etc. Does that then mean we are prohibited from participating in them?
note the wording . . . . . Christ and the early Christians, as post Israel.
As for Judiciary and Police a Christian i would think would need to use discernment and come to a conscience based decision.
For example you may feel that , as per your conscience you would not carry a fire arm, given Gods view of the sanctity of life, however, you may have no problem with working in forensics. Also Christians are counselled to 'not make oaths', for our allegiance is to Gods Kingdom, would it involve making an oath of allegiance to the state or a personage, perhaps the Queen if you lived in the U.K. So there are not a few factors that one should consider.
Originally posted by whodey Of course, Christ was about "justice", whether it be social or otherwise. However, it has been mixed at times with political dribble such as the Black Liberation Movement which mixes Marxism and the gospels. Is Marxism social justice? From my obeservation the answer is no.
It is my position that Christ came to change the hearts so that they would be a ...[text shortened]... stice on us all which ends up being a form of servitude to an elite class in power.
If you perceive the democratic introduction of social justice to be an imposition then you will not know the kingdom.
Originally posted by josephw The truth, if one will simply think it through to it's logical conclusion, is this. Until Jesus returns and establishes His Kingdom [b]Himself, we, The Church, Christians, are to be about the business of spreading the gospel so that lost people can be saved. That's what we're here for. We're not here to help set up God's Kingdom. Jesus will do that when ...[text shortened]... hell with this sinking ship. Trust Christ as your saviour today while there is still time.[/b]
You've been waiting for Jesus for 2,000 years. If you're waiting for him to come back and do all the work for you then you will be waiting until the end of time. For I say that he is waiting for you to get off you lazy butt and do the work yourself. Demonstrate that you are worthy of being saved. Then he will return 'in spirit' to give your undertaking his blessing.
Originally posted by Thomas Lavery Religion and politics do not mix. This is a secular government and bringing in religion only causes more divisions.
Social justice is NOT a religious topic. It is a human, social topic. That people can be motivated by their religion to seek its furtherance is not in any way a breach of the wall of separation of church and state.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie Yes, Christ and early Christians were absolutely apolitical, for his Kingdom was no part of this world.
You have no idea what 'not of this world' means. It does NOT mean 'not of this earth.' It means 'not of this society.' Christians were not to partake of the 'world' of exploitation and usury and oppression. The Kingdom IS on this earth, but it is not in the world of mammon. The Kingdom of God is all around you, but men do not see it.
I realize this position contradicts my earlier post that Christians should not be averse to using democratic means to enact social justice. It comes down to two options. If Christians are not to make any use of political governments, then they should drop out of society altogether and form their own separate communities. Like the Amish and Hutterites have done. Then they can enact social justice within their own communities without recourse to governmental institutions. If, however, they are to continue to live in general society, then using civil government to advance positions that do not contradict the separation of church and state should be open to them.
Originally posted by whodey Actually I went to the late service today and guess what he talked about? He discussed all the social barriers that exist such as race, social status, economic status, sex, etc. He pointed to Galations 3 where Paul says that there is no difference whether it be Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female in the sight of God. It was pretty radical stuff f ...[text shortened]... Unfortunalty all three seem to morph into something else than what they were intended to become.
Because social justice is hard to come by, your advice is to just forget it and continue exploiting each other to the hilt?
Originally posted by rwingett Because social justice is hard to come by, your advice is to just forget it and continue exploiting each other to the hilt?
Not at all. The good news of the gospel is that it does not matter your race, nor sex, nor economic status in order to recieve God into your life. All you need to do is reach out in faith to him. Having said that, once you become a child of God you then become a light unto the world thus being a source of justice to those around you. This means doing unto others as you would want them to do to you. It is the golden rule given to us by Christ and if we keep it, we will obey all the commandments by default. At least, that is what Chirst said.
Originally posted by rwingett As many of you know by now, Glenn Beck has stirred up more controversy by urging people to leave churches that preach 'social justice.' He compared them to Nazis and Communists. Now he is getting a tremendous backlash from Christians who say that social justice is exactly what Jesus preached and that instead we should boycott Glenn Beck.
I have made my ...[text shortened]... have an opinion on Beck's comments and the role and scope of social justice in Christianity?
Originally posted by rwingett You have no idea what 'not of this world' means. It does NOT mean 'not of this earth.' It means 'not of this society.' Christians were not to partake of the 'world' of exploitation and usury and oppression. The Kingdom IS on this earth, but it is not in the world of mammon. The Kingdom of God is all around you, but men do not see it.
I realize this posi ...[text shortened]... itions that do not contradict the separation of church and state should be open to them.
sorry mate, yes you are correct, a Christian was to be no part of the world in the sense that he was not to adopt its traits, greed corruption, injustice etc etc, this would naturally rule out the political element, which is, well, greedy corrupt and according to scripture in the hands of a satanic element. Of course it does not mean that Christians were to remain aloof from humanity, indeed they were to be embroiled in it, helping others as much as they could, this naturally rules out communes, for Christ himself set the pattern. Paul clearly shows that a christians role is with regard to governmental authorities one of relative subjection, we pay tax, respect it etc, but if it contravenes Gods laws, then its these that are first and foremost to be obeyed. Romans chapter thirteen.
Beck vs. Jesus
14 Mar '10 19:29
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