1. Utrecht
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    15 Apr '09 12:11
    Suppose I am the new Messiah and I have The Truth, I know All, the works. And I tell you about it. Just imagine.
    How can you recognise that what I tell you is The Truth. Cause if you can recognise it, you must know The Truth too. And then there would be no reason to follow me. When you don't recognise The Truth, you will miss the new Messiah completely. You'll never would have known I (He) was around. So you'll wait and wait and wait. All the time He was in your face. Now, that would be a bummer.
    Another scenario is this (and this is what happened to all religions): I tell you about The Truth. You copy it and doing that, you have no clue about The Truth. My way can not be your way.
  2. Cape Town
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    15 Apr '09 12:20
    Originally posted by Sake
    Suppose I am the new Messiah and I have The Truth, I know All, the works. And I tell you about it. Just imagine.
    How can you recognise that what I tell you is The Truth. Cause if you can recognise it, you must know The Truth too. And then there would be no reason to follow me. When you don't recognise The Truth, you will miss the new Messiah completely. You'll ...[text shortened]... you'll wait and wait and wait. All the time He was in your face. Now, that would be a bummer.
    If you are unable to communicate the Truth to me in a convincing manner then you are not a very good Messiah.

    Another scenario is this (and this is what happened to all religions): I tell you about The Truth. You copy it and doing that, you have no clue about The Truth. My way can not be your way.
    One argument put forward by Muslims is that Mohammad dictated the Quran directly (rather than the way the Bible was written), and put in place rules to ensure that it is passed down as accurately as possible. I would think that the Quran you read today is not much different from what Mohammad dictated.
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    15 Apr '09 13:11
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    [b]If you are unable to communicate the Truth to me in a convincing manner then you are not a very good Messiah.
    You will have to let Christ know that he needs to do a much better job for you next go round.
  4. Standard memberScriabin
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    15 Apr '09 16:34
    Originally posted by Sake
    Suppose I am the new Messiah and I have The Truth, I know All, the works. And I tell you about it. Just imagine.
    How can you recognise that what I tell you is The Truth. Cause if you can recognise it, you must know The Truth too. And then there would be no reason to follow me. When you don't recognise The Truth, you will miss the new Messiah completely. You'll ...[text shortened]... th. You copy it and doing that, you have no clue about The Truth. My way can not be your way.
    suppose instead that you are a corrupt, lying bottom feeding scavenger of a Congressman -- but I repeat myself.
  5. Utrecht
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    15 Apr '09 18:49
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    If you are unable to communicate the Truth to me in a convincing manner then you are not a very good Messiah.

    [b]Another scenario is this (and this is what happened to all religions): I tell you about The Truth. You copy it and doing that, you have no clue about The Truth. My way can not be your way.

    One argument put forward by Muslims is that Moh ...[text shortened]... I would think that the Quran you read today is not much different from what Mohammad dictated.[/b]
    I am convincing, but how can you tell it's The Truth I'm telling.
    With muslims is the same thing. They believe Mohammed told The Truth. But how do they know it is The Truth. Because Mohammed told them so?
  6. Utrecht
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    15 Apr '09 18:52
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    suppose instead that you are a corrupt, lying bottom feeding scavenger of a Congressman -- but I repeat myself.
    Spirituality is not politics
  7. Account suspended
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    15 Apr '09 18:571 edit
    Originally posted by Sake
    Suppose I am the new Messiah and I have The Truth, I know All, the works. And I tell you about it. Just imagine.
    How can you recognise that what I tell you is The Truth. Cause if you can recognise it, you must know The Truth too. And then there would be no reason to follow me. When you don't recognise The Truth, you will miss the new Messiah completely. You'll th. You copy it and doing that, you have no clue about The Truth. My way can not be your way.
    if you were a messiah, there would be, according to scripture, certain criteria that you would have to fulfill, thus your credentials would need to be checked and verified, what is more, those credentials would be written down, in a book, and preserved, through generations so that others too would be able to determine whether or not you were telling the truth, or indeed you're claims were false, its crystal clear, if you actually think about it and of course you would have to prove in some way that you were better qualified than the last guy who claimed such a lineage.
  8. Cape Town
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    15 Apr '09 19:08
    Originally posted by Sake
    I am convincing, but how can you tell it's The Truth I'm telling.
    No you are not convincing. I am totally unconvinced by you so far.

    With muslims is the same thing. They believe Mohammed told The Truth. But how do they know it is The Truth. Because Mohammed told them so?
    A substantial proportion grow up believing it to be the truth and do not need much convincing. Once you already believe something to be the truth, finding arguments to back yourself up is not usually difficult.
  9. Cape Town
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    15 Apr '09 19:11
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    if you were a messiah, there would be, according to scripture, certain criteria that you would have to fulfill, thus your credentials would need to be checked and verified, what is more, those credentials would be written down, in a book, and preserved, through generations so that others too would be able to determine whether or not you were telling ...[text shortened]... prove in some way that you were better qualified than the last guy who claimed such a lineage.
    But what if those criteria you talk of are not 'the Truth' or correct criteria and it is in fact Sake who as the Messiah gives us the criteria. You are choosing an apparently arbitrary method for determining the validity of a Messiah - no wait, it isn't arbitrary, it is the method you belief confirms your own preferred Messiah!
  10. Utrecht
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    15 Apr '09 20:07
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No you are not convincing. I am totally unconvinced by you so far.

    [b]With muslims is the same thing. They believe Mohammed told The Truth. But how do they know it is The Truth. Because Mohammed told them so?

    A substantial proportion grow up believing it to be the truth and do not need much convincing. Once you already believe something to be the truth, finding arguments to back yourself up is not usually difficult.[/b]
    You see, I have told you The Truth and yet you are not convinced. And if you were convinced, then what?
    Have you an idea what, or who the Messiah should be about?

    Believing is something else then knowing. But what's the turning point that people say I believe you, you are the Prophet, The Messiah, I will follow. And again, when they recognise The Truth, they must have known The Truth already. Then there would be no reason to hype the guy, there would be nothing special about him.
  11. Utrecht
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    15 Apr '09 20:14
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    if you were a messiah, there would be, according to scripture, certain criteria that you would have to fulfill, thus your credentials would need to be checked and verified, what is more, those credentials would be written down, in a book, and preserved, through generations so that others too would be able to determine whether or not you were telling ...[text shortened]... prove in some way that you were better qualified than the last guy who claimed such a lineage.
    Who will check and verify my credentials? What credentials?
    Others need to be able to determine wether I'm telling the truth. Apparently some people seem to know The Truth, or else there would be nothing to verify. Ain't that interesting?
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    15 Apr '09 21:111 edit
    Originally posted by Sake
    Who will check and verify my credentials? What credentials?
    Others need to be able to determine wether I'm telling the truth. Apparently some people seem to know The Truth, or else there would be nothing to verify. Ain't that interesting?
    interesting ?, well its quite banal if you ask me, for right away i would suspect you of being a fake, for you are claiming that you are a messiah without actually knowing what a messiah actually is and when i would ask for verification of your credentials, you would say, what credentials ? confirming my suspicions, infact it would be perfectly obvious that you were a fake and i could go about my business safe in the knowledge that you were a charlatan.
  13. Standard memberScriabin
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    15 Apr '09 21:32
    Originally posted by Sake
    Spirituality is not politics
    yes, it is

    and christianity is not spirituality -- it is politics mixed with idolatry
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    15 Apr '09 23:591 edit
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    yes, it is

    and christianity is not spirituality -- it is politics mixed with idolatry
    Honestly Scriabin my learned friend, do what i do, go and get a Waltons dvd, sit down and watch it, you will feel less cynical, your faith in human virtue reestablished and you will wish you were in Virginia, I wish i was instead of this freezing little island!
  15. Standard memberScriabin
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    16 Apr '09 01:56
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Honestly Scriabin my learned friend, do what i do, go and get a Waltons dvd, sit down and watch it, you will feel less cynical, your faith in human virtue reestablished and you will wish you were in Virginia, I wish i was instead of this freezing little island!
    One day Nasrudin put a chicken to roast in his oven, and went out for a time.

    A local wag substituted a live chicken.

    When Nasrudin came back he found the house surrounded by villagers. 'Nasrudin,' they cried, 'Akram has performed a miracle. He has brought your roasting bird back to life.'

    The Mulla opened the oven door, looked in, and then turned to face the crowd.

    'Miracles are all very well, but there are certain matters of detail. Do you think that your power to work wonders, which I freely acknowledge on the evidence before me, gives you the right to theft? You have vanished my spices and salt. Who will pay for the firewood wasted? Worst of all, you have caused my effort in preparing the fowl to disappear. '
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