1. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    20 Oct '05 16:13
    Sorry Nicolaas. I am not attempting to make a sarcastic jab at your thread but rather to get anyone's attention who is interested. I have respected and will continue to respect your wishes to not post in that thread being that I am not a Christian.

    I do think it is interesting, however, that it seems like it is a prerequisite of some Christians that they feel the need to convert the unfaithful over to the flock? I never understood that. I understand the common answer usually given: As a Christian, it is your duty to God to show the non-Christian the way to Christ so we can enter Heaven (words to that effect). For me, that tends to take on an assumption that us Non-Christians can never be happy or have a fulfilling life without Jesus Christ and I am willing to bet almost every single non-Christian would disagree with that. Some Christians may respond to this by saying something like, "The Non-Christian may think they are happy but they are being fooled by the lures of Satan..." and who knows? Maybe that is true but maybe that isn't true.

    Anyway the point I am attempting to make is that I am pretty sure most non-Christians are not interested in any sort of conversion and much of the time the Christian conversion attempt (however earnest it may be) is often both an infringement and a completely disregard for anything us non-Christians may believe.

    With respect,

    Fist
  2. Standard memberWulebgr
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    20 Oct '05 16:521 edit
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    Sorry Nicolaas. I am not attempting to make a sarcastic jab at your thread but rather to get anyone's attention who is interested. I have respected and will continue to respect your wishes to not post in that thread being that I am not a Christian.

    I do think it is interesting, however, that it seems like it is a prerequisite of some Christians that t ...[text shortened]... and a completely disregard for anything us non-Christians may believe.

    With respect,

    Fist
    I cannot accept the assumptions within which your binary categories are constructed. By using the term non-Christian, you put forth the very delusion that you rail against.
  3. Standard memberwib
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    20 Oct '05 16:54
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    Sorry Nicolaas. I am not attempting to make a sarcastic jab at your thread but rather to get anyone's attention who is interested. I have respected and will continue to respect your wishes to not post in that thread being that I am not a Christian.

    I do think it is interesting, however, that it seems like it is a prerequisite of some Christians that t ...[text shortened]... and a completely disregard for anything us non-Christians may believe.

    With respect,

    Fist
    Agreed.

    It helps if you think of Christianity as a virus. What happens when a virus stops spreading? It dies. The builders of Christianity certainly were not stupid. They knew full well that for their religion to succeed (grow) they had to keep adding to the flock. "Shrinkage" in numbers is frowned upon.

    Much like Amway, the leaders of Christianity know that the bigger the flock is, the easier it is to make the flock even bigger. Since Christians are required to spread the word (recruit) it's logical to assume that more Christians equals more recruiters. More recruiters equals more christians recruited into the flock.

    And the beat goes on baby...
  4. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    20 Oct '05 17:20
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    I cannot accept the assumptions within which your binary categories are constructed. By using the term non-Christian, you put forth the very delusion that you rail against.
    Explain what you mean please and please use common language that a person would have in a conversation.
  5. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    20 Oct '05 17:21
    Originally posted by wib
    Agreed.

    It helps if you think of Christianity as a virus. What happens when a virus stops spreading? It dies. The builders of Christianity certainly were not stupid. They knew full well that for their religion to succeed (grow) they had to keep adding to the flock. "Shrinkage" in numbers is frowned upon.

    Much like Amway, the leaders of Christianit ...[text shortened]... ore recruiters equals more christians recruited into the flock.

    And the beat goes on baby...
    Well said

    Joe Fist, former Amway Distributor (what the Hell was I thinking?)
  6. Standard memberWulebgr
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    20 Oct '05 17:38
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    Explain what you mean please and please use common language that a person would have in a conversation.
    I spoke as I do in conversations. But I'll try to break it down:

    Your question/comment divides the world into two categories--Christian and non-Christian. Christians use these categories. Those of us who reject or ignore Christainity, including those who worship Allah or Yahweh (the original supreme being that Christians characteristically misrepresent), do not think of ourselves as non-Christians.

    If you wish to complain about the lust Christians have for conversion of others, why do you concede their basic categories for dividing up the world?
  7. Standard memberRemoved
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    20 Oct '05 17:521 edit
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    Sorry Nicolaas. I am not attempting to make a sarcastic jab at your thread but rather to get anyone's attention who is interested. I have respected and will continue to respect your wishes to not post in that thread being that I am not a Christian.

    I do think it is interesting, however, that it seems like it is a prerequisite of some Christians that t ...[text shortened]... and a completely disregard for anything us non-Christians may believe.

    With respect,

    Fist
    Perhaps these verses will help clear things up.


    Ezek 33:8-9
    8 "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you shall surely die!' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.
    9 "Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
    (NKJ)

    But I will add that this is OT Law. Christians are not under law. But the OT is written for our learning. So having said that, Xtians follow the heart of the command but not literally. That is, Xtians are to LIVE what they believe, and THIS is the witness. Not shoving it down people's throat.
    Too many Xtians are encouraged to "witness" Jesus Christ, but they go about it wrong. I have been guilty of this myself, but now I know when to shut up. If someone is not interested, I leave it alone. And the person can still be my friend. Some of my best friends are unbelievers.
    God has to "open a door" of oppurtunity to talk to someone about spiritual matters. Only He knows if someone will be receptive. That is my view....But as a disclaimer, because I know someone may bring it up, in the book of Acts, this does not seem to be the case. Paul and others preached to all, and at times paid the price....stoning, riots, etc...
    This however does not make it the norm. When Paul encountered the most persecution was when he did not follow God's warnings...

    Acts 21:4
    4 And finding disciples, we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem.
    (NKJ)

    So what happened?...after going to Jeruselum and ignoring the warning...
    Paul suffered alright, and one person was "almost persuaded".That's it!

    I didn't mean to write a "book". Got carried away...sorry....
  8. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    20 Oct '05 19:55
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    I spoke as I do in conversations. But I'll try to break it down:

    Your question/comment divides the world into two categories--Christian and non-Christian. Christians use these categories. Those of us who reject or ignore Christainity, including those who worship Allah or Yahweh (the original supreme being that Christians characteristically misrepresent), ...[text shortened]... e for conversion of others, why do you concede their basic categories for dividing up the world?
    Your question/comment divides the world into two categories--Christian and non-Christian. Christians use these categories. Those of us who reject or ignore Christainity, including those who worship Allah or Yahweh (the original supreme being that Christians characteristically misrepresent), do not think of ourselves as non-Christians.

    Well I am Agnostic and I don't commonly refer to myself as a "Non-Christian" but I didn't and I still don't think it is necessary to dissect all of the non-Christians into their respective categories. I did it here to illustrate the difference from the Christians and the rest of the world. As an Agnostic, I am really not interested in any other religions except from perhaps an analytical perspective. It really makes no difference to me if the Christians use the same method to divide people.

    If you don't care for my categorization suit yourself but I am not interested in writing out Christians vs, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists, Hindus, etc. to illustrate my point.
  9. Standard memberWulebgr
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    20 Oct '05 20:08
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    [b]Your question/comment divides the world into two categories--Christian and non-Christian. Christians use these categories. Those of us who reject or ignore Christainity, including those who worship Allah or Yahweh (the original supreme being that Christians characteristically misrepresent), do not think of ourselves as non-Christians.

    Well I am Ag ...[text shortened]... out Christians vs, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists, Hindus, etc. to illustrate my point.[/b]
    You might have set it out as "Christians and normal people" ONLY please
  10. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    20 Oct '05 20:15
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    You might have set it out as "Christians and normal people" ONLY please
    LOL. That was funny and rec'd by me.
  11. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Oct '05 21:342 edits
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    Sorry Nicolaas. I am not attempting to make a sarcastic jab at your thread but rather to get anyone's attention who is interested. I have respected and will continue to respect your wishes to not post in that thread being that I am not a Christian.

    I do think it is interesting, however, that it seems like it is a prerequisite of some Christians that t ...[text shortened]... and a completely disregard for anything us non-Christians may believe.

    With respect,

    Fist
    So basically the normal people don't give a d@mn? Then how come there are "normal" people here who seem to have made it their mission in life to post "religiously" offensive, deriding (and often illogical) posts? (I shan't mention any names) Doesn't seem very "normal" to me. Maybe it's a headrush and prejudice on both sides of your binary dividing line. I'm not taking the sanctimonious higher ground, because I'll readily admit having been drawn into some ad hominems of my own. However there are some people who hardly attempt reasonable discussion. I seem to recall you, TheSkipper and MouldyCrow denying the intolerance of religion on the grounds of the people getting stick and ridicule being "@$$holes". What pray is the difference? I honestly didn't see any of the "level-headed" atheists/agnostics dish out some stick when the shoe is on the other foot and one of their own are being an "@$$hole". Just my thought on the matter... welcome to ridicule if you want.

    To answer your question, on Christians having a "duty": I believe they firstly have the "duty" of living a life reflecting that of Christ. Your deeds speak much louder than your words.
  12. Standard membertelerion
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    20 Oct '05 22:051 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    So basically the normal people don't give a d@mn? Then how come there are "normal" people here who seem to have made it their mission in life to post "religiously" offensive, deriding (and often illogical) posts? (I shan't mention any names) Doesn't seem very "normal" to me. Maybe it's a headrush and prejudice on both sides of your binary dividing ...[text shortened]... duty" of living a life reflecting that of Christ. Your deeds speak much louder than your words.
    I never do any harm to xians. I'm actually trying to help them. You see, I'm building up treasures for them in heaven.

    Now isn't that thoughtful of me?
  13. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Oct '05 22:13
    Originally posted by telerion
    I never do any harm to xians. I'm actually trying to help them. You see, I'm building up stores for them in heaven.

    Now isn't that thoughtful of me?
    Lol.

    I'll admit we've had some reasonable discussions. Time to make a middle-ground category for the mostly-reasonable, which I guess I'll also qualify for.
  14. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    20 Oct '05 22:32
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    wib,

    Help me out. I keep being approached by Amway people. The recruiting tactics are the same, and as I recently found out, this makes sense, because alot of Amway people are born-again Christians. But anyway, I've seen the business model (kind of like catching crabs - if you live long enough, and you're in enough places, you're bound to see ...[text shortened]... my skin crawl?

    Please. Somebody articulate it for me. Explain to me why I feel what I feel.
    You want Amway? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE AMWAY!!!!! Just kidding. I can tell you first hand why Amway sucks. Actually the business model is fairly sound and straight forward: You become a distributor and use it basically as your supermarket buying all of your household items from them. For this, you get what is called "point value" (pv) and if you get enough "pv", you get a check back from Amway. If you convince anybody else to do this, they go under you and you get pv for their shopping and so on and so.

    Why it sucks is due to the "support systems" that are technically not affliated with the Amway Corporation but they supposedly show you the way to "Go Diamond" (one of the highest levels in Amway) and they get you to buy all of this support material (audio stuff, books, etc). Basically you are taught to "pimp" this stuff to not only everybody you know but to what is called "prospect" total strangers and nothing makes you feel any closer to a whore than this.

    It's like being a traveling salesman with a bag of crap to sell.
  15. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    20 Oct '05 22:582 edits
    Originally posted by Halitose
    So basically the normal people don't give a d@mn? Then how come there are "normal" people here who seem to have made it their mission in life to post "religiously" offensive, deriding (and often illogical) posts? (I shan't mention any names) Doesn't seem very "normal" to me. Maybe it's a headrush and prejudice on both sides of your binary dividing ...[text shortened]... duty" of living a life reflecting that of Christ. Your deeds speak much louder than your words.
    So basically the normal people don't give a d@mn?

    Again it wasn't me who coined this thread "Normal". Someone was offended by the term "Non-Christian" but I never made the claim that Christians are not normal. And why do you think the "normal"/"Non-Christians" don't give a damn? That was never implied by me at all. Is it not possible for Atheists to care for other people? Or anyone else? We just don't have the notion that we know God but that doesn't mean we don't care.

    Then how come there are "normal" people here who seem to have made it their mission in life to post "religiously" offensive, deriding (and often illogical) posts?

    I don't know? Maybe you should ask them? I have tried not to be illogical unless I am intentionally being sarcastic which I have attempted to refrain from lately. My speculation is that the "normal" people who posts such things are irritated with the likes of some Christians who are just obsessed with their righteousness and their perceived righteousness with Christ. Please mention names and I don't mind if my name is mentioned because I have done my share. But to me, the history of reactions from the non-Christian soapboxers has always been in response to fanatical Christians (namely dj2becker and BF101) who has created countless threads of not only their belief in Christ but has made it a point to put down others. If they just left it at what they believed, I think they would be ignored by us "normal folk" but they provoke every slander they get because they are both unsophisticated enough to realize there is a great big world out there filled with people who think differently about things.
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