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@fmf saidIndeed. Sonship grudgingly mentions obeying the commandments, and he never speaks of it the way Jesus did. Never would sonship say what Jesus said about feeding the hungry, helping the poor, clothing the naked etc etc, the way Jesus preached, neither would he quote these passages. These passages only surface when I, and Medullah [now Liljo as well] brings it up.
. sonship, the poster who started this thread, has asserted that he is irrevocably "saved" and talks very little about "obeying the commandments".
He preaches about a kind of selfish 'good works', if there is such a thing. His good works is sitting or praying and asking Jesus Christ to help them think about helping others. Its along those lines. I cannot restate what he said exactly because it sounds like utter nonsense. His good works is thinking and praying. It is never about actually doing selfless things and helping and being charitable.
In fact he refers to the commandments of Christ as legalistic,. He calls me Pharisaical for trying to promote good works. He says I teach 'works salvation', and what I say is a 'burdensome' doctrine. There are no encouraging positive words about righteousness and good works from sonship's teachings.
-Removed-I didn't use the term "perfect Logic", and you know it; why the deceit?
I don't and never have personally claimed to be saved.
Matt 7 - 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord,+ did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
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I think that your logic is twisted to try and suggest that to perish means to live or even be part of a resurrection.
If the alternative to eternal life is to perish (john 3:16) then resurrections don't come into this.
How do you feel about the opposites in the same gospel in 5:27-29?
"And He gave Him authority to execute judgment because He is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will come forth;
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;
and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment."
1.)
Compare - the OPPOSITES in John 3:16 is eternal life verses perish.
2.)
And the OPPOSITES in John 5:28,29 is resurrection of life verses resurrection of judgment.
1.)
John 3:16 -"perish" verses "have eternal life"
2.)
John 5:28,29 - come forth in "resurrection of judgment" (perish) verses "resurrection of life" (have eternal life).
I think the comparison helps to understand the physical aspect of what Jesus was talking about. If you see something twisted there please explain it.
@rajk999 saidAgreed, though with the word "Torment" I seem to recall that it can mean to incarcerate?
Correct. In order to include some statements by Christ, there is an element of torment as part of the punishment for some evil people, These are cast into the lake of fire where they are tormented but eventually perish [annihilated]. However, to claim that all unbelievers are tormented for eternity is complete nonsense.. The basis for this false doctrine is another false doctrine, that of the immortal soul [a doctrine with no biblical support]
I thought that it was linked to the word (or one very similar) "Bassanistes" (Bassa - nis -tees ) though my spelling could be way out (sorry).
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@medullah saidChrist is given the authority to execute judgment.
@sonship
Sorry, could you re-phrase this please and simplify the question so that there is no misunderstanding? Are we talking about the play on the word "execute"?
"And He gave Him authority to execute judgment because He is the Son of Man." (John 5:27)
Does this make sense to you?
The resurrection of judgment is to those who perish.
" . . . and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (5:29b)
In contrast those who believe in Christ will not come into judgment:
"He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life." (5:24)
In resurrection from the tomb where the physically dead are there are two resurrections. One to eternal life and the other to perish in a judgment.
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice.
And will come forth;
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;
and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (vs.28,29)
@medullah saidHere is Strongs, - torment and tormented
Agreed, though with the word "Torment" I seem to recall that it can mean to incarcerate?
I thought that it was linked to the word (or one very similar) "Bassanistes" (Bassa - nis -tees ) though my spelling could be way out (sorry).
βασανισμός basanismos bas-an-is-mos'
From G928; torture: - torment.
Total KJV occurrences: 6
βασανίζω basanizō bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
Total KJV occurrences: 12
Not seeing the incarcerate part.
@medullah saidMay I ask which English translation that is?
Is this the point of attention perhaps ?
29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
Is the question around how those that practiced vile things could have a resurrection to judgement?
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@sonship saidAs usual, you quote without stating the version, and this version paints a different picture of the words of Christ. Here is the KJV:
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice. And will come forth;those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (vs.28,29)
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:27-29 KJV)
You use a version which supports your doctrine of OSAS, which states that the professed Christian cannot be damned but only has to face judgment, after which he is punished for a period and then given eternal life. The is clearly not the teachings of Christ.
Here in John, Jesus Christ states it categorically that ALL who have done evil will be resurrected and DAMNED, not just judged.
You continue promote a deceitful doctrine contrary to Christ and the Apostles.
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@medullah saidBasically what I have tried to do in order to understand what Jesus meant by shall not perish in John 3:16 is to show that to not come under the judgment following the resurrection is to not perish.
@sonship
Sorry, could you re-phrase this please and simplify the question so that there is no misunderstanding? Are we talking about the play on the word "execute"?
I am coming to John 3:16 to explore what perish could mean.
I am doing it kind of step by step.
I ask if anyone sees the relationship of not perish but have eternal life related to latter chapter 5? There Jesus speaks of Him executing a judgment upon those who are resurrected out of the tombs.
Some because they have heard Him who sent Christ and Christ have passed from this judgment. I would say their judgment was on the cross on Calvary.
They were JUDGED there in Christ's death.
Some come forth from the tombs to a judgment - "the resurrection of judgment". They have "practiced evil". The former have "done good".
" . . . for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment."
Please allow me to add the divine impartiality of the Son of Man who is to be Judge:
"I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me." (v.30)
You use a version which supports your doctrine of OSAS, which states that the professed Christian cannot be damned but only has to face judgment, after which he is punished for a period and then given eternal life. The is clearly not the teachings of Christ.
Here in John, Jesus Christ states it categorically that ALL who have done evil will be resurrected and DAMNED, not just judged.
You continue promote a deceitful doctrine contrary to Christ and the Apostles.
I will perhaps discuss this analysis with one of the other few posters here.
I think either medullah or Kilijo will listen to me speak to this criticism.
@sonship saidOf courser, it's a fair question. That was pulled (because I had it open) the New World Translation, but I often use the King James
May I ask which English translation that is?
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
or whatever else that I have open at the time.