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    11 Aug '09 21:48
    1.) First I would have to convince you that a Christian can be disciplined by Christ after the second coming of Christ

    2.) Then I would try to show you that such discipline has a wide latitude of passibilities.

    3.) Then I would try to show you that in the most extreme case the Christian could be hurt by the lake of fire.

    4.) Then I would try to show you that such punishment could only be temporary.

    5.) Then to be fair I would show you my own problems with the view which I have not solved yet. I also would handle objections to the view which I think I can solve.

    This is a five point analysis of the problem.
  2. Joined
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    11 Aug '09 22:123 edits
    First we have to see that Jesus and the apostle Paul teach that a saved disciple can be punished by Jesus after the second coming of Christ.

    In a parable about His second coming and the Christian's readiness for it Jesus says:

    "But if the slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk, the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

    And the slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes. But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes will receive few lashes.

    But ti every onbe to whom much has been given, much will be required from him, and to wwhom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (See Luke 12:42-48)


    1.) This parable definitely refers to Christ coming back. So the dealing with His slave is a dealing with him after the second coming of Christ.

    2.) The one being disciplined in the parable is the slave or servant of the master. He therefore could not be an unbeliever. He must be a Christian.

    3.) Lashes obviously means some form of punishment. And because he acted in such an unworthy manner and was caught off guard by Christ's coming, he will have a taste of what an unbeliever would have -

    " ... and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers."

    4.) This cannot be a teaching on salvation by works because the Christian is saved by faith not by works. Therefore the teaching must be about the suffering of loss after the second coming of Christ not the loss of eternal redemption.

    5,) Paul warns us that some believers will suffer loss but themselves will be saved yet so as through fire.

    "The work of each will become manifest, for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.

    If anyone's work which he has built upon [the foundation] remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15)


    What I wish to establish here is that after the second coming of Christ, some servants of the Lord, some Christians will "suffer loss" though they themselves will be saved.

    The case of the unruly slave in Luke 12 is an example. According to the judgment of the Master, this slave can receive a heavy punishment or a lighter punishment. That is purely according to Christ's wisdom. If the slave did not know better, he may be punished lighter. If the slave should have known better, he will be punished heavier.

    The Corinthian verse speaks of losing the reward. The Luke verse speaks of receiving lashes and partaking along with unbelievers.

    Since the Corinthian verse speaks of the disciple being saved yet so as through fire, the strong implication is that any discipline or suffering of loss, is not eternal but temporary. It is not the loss of eternal redemption or of eternal life.

    The ground work, I believe has been laid, to prove that after the second coming of Christ a servant of Christ (saved by faith and not works) might be rewarded or punished according to those works temporarily.

    It should be noted that Revelation 20 shows that before the age of eternity Christ establishes His millennial kingdom for 1,000 years. During that time I fully expect that some dispensational discipline or reward will be dispensed to the Christians.
  3. Joined
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    11 Aug '09 22:35
    Now that we see that after the second coming of Christ His servants could be rewarded or lose a reward, I want to show that the latitude of possibilities is wide.

    First consider that just as an earthly judge has a wide range of things he can do under the law to deal with an offender, so can the Judge of all the earth, Christ.

    " if anyone's work which he has built upon [the foundation] remains, he will receive a reward ..."
    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss ..."


    Receiving a reward to suffering loss is the scope. Within this scope there are various options that the Righteous Judge Christ has at His disposal.

    To prove this we can see that Jesus awards to some of His servants to rule with Him over ten cities. And to others to rule over five cities with Him. (Luke 10:11-27)

    After the Lord Jesus' second coming some may reign over five cities and some over ten cities. This is degrees of reward. So when Paul says "he shall receive a reward" it could vary.

    What about "he shall suffer loss"?

    I have already pointed out that upon the second coming of Christ one unworthy servant could receive many lashes and another could receive few lashes (Luke 12:48)

    So we have the second coming of Christ. And we have a scope of possibilities of consequences to Christians. Those possibilities lie within the range of -

    On the negative side many lashes - few lashes.
    On the positive side reigning over five cites to reigning over ten cities.

    The specifics are only general indications of varying degrees of punishment or varying degrees of reward.

    Neither the punishments nor the rewards have anything to do with eternal salvation. They are dispensational matters carried out before the eternal age during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. See Revelation 20 and the mention six times of a thousand years.
  4. Joined
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    11 Aug '09 22:58
    Now I will proceed to the third step. This is not a pleasant subject. But it concerns the farther end of the negative side of disciplines that a Christian could receive at the second coming of Christ.

    A good place to start might be Revelation.

    In the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia, Christ concludes each letter with an admonition to hear the Spirit and a promise of reward to the overcomer.

    Two letters I would bring to your attention. The letter to the church in Smyrna and the letter to the church in Sardis.

    Smyrna - "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11)

    The second death is the lake of fire (Rev.20:14)

    It must be noted that this letter is addressed to Christians. Now man may be sloppy. Man may include non-believers as members of a "church". But Jesus Christ is not that sloppy. He knows WHO is His and WHO is not His.

    So this letter to the church in Smyrna (2:8) I have to take as a communication to saved Christians for whom the question of eternal redemtion has been already settled. They will never perish forever.

    Yet this is a matter of reward for works. And the Lord Jesus expresses the reward uncustomarily, in negative sense. If they overcome He will NOT do something.

    Rather, if the Christians (eternally redeemed) overcome in this instance, something will NOT happen to them. They will not be hurt by the second death, the lake of fire.

    Now, I have to assume that if them NOT being hurt by the second death is a reward for overcoming, then for being defeated there is the possibility that they COULD be hurt of the second death. The tone of the promise is definitely NOT that being hurt by the second death is totally out of the question simply because they are Christians.

    I don't think this logic can be defeated. God told the Israelites that if they obeyed Him He would NOT put on them the plagues which He put on Egypt (Deut. 7:15)

    In the same sense, for not being defeated but partaking of grace in persecution the Christians in the church in Smyrna will not be hurt by the second death.

    The phrasing of "hurt of the second death" comes short of suggesting permanent and eternal perdition. However it does suggest strongly that they could be touched and hurt by the lake of fire.

    Before I confirm the possibility in the plain words of Jesus in the synoptic Gospels let's look at another negative promise in the letter to Sardis:

    "He who overcomes will be clothed thus, in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life." (Rev. 3:5)

    This too is a reward framed in the sense of witholding something negative. To the overcomer Jesus will NOT erase his name from the book of life.

    If there is a promise not to do something to the Christians that must mean that there is the possibility that it could happen. A Christian's name could be temporarily erased from the book of life. A Christian could temporarily be hurt of the second death.

    This is the extreme negative end of the wide scope of possible loss that the Christian could suffer, yet still be saved as Paul indicates:

    " ... he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)
  5. Joined
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    11 Aug '09 23:191 edit
    I believe that the evidence for the dispensational punishment of Christians who are eternally saved, is growing.

    I have already pointed out that the servant whom Jesus found acting badly when He returned is cut asunder and appointed his portion with the unbeliever.

    I have shown that the implication to the defeated Christian in the letter to the church in Smyrna is that they could be hurt of the second death.

    I have shown that the implication to the defeated Christian in the letter to Sardis is that they could have their names erased from the book of life.

    I have shown that Paul said some Christians would be saved yet so as through fire. They will lose a reward. They may suffer loss.

    The time frame for all of these disciplines is immediately after the second coming of Christ. Yet eternity does not begin immediately after the second coming of Christ. There is a period of 1,000 years in which Christ established His millennial kingdom on the earth.

    I submit that this is according to God's wisdom. It is like this:

    You may be saved by grace. But you may not wish to go on to allow Christ to comform you to His image. Perhaps the Christian is saved yet still loves the flesh and the world. Perhaps He has his "ticket" to "go to heaven" as he thinks, yet still lives as an unbeliever. The world cannot detect any difference in the way he lives.

    He may think that he is getting away with something. The name of Christ is blasphemed because he brings disrepute to the gospel. The skeptical are delighted that this Christian's behavior proves that he is no better than an unbeliever in his morals.

    Because God knows that one does not HAVE to cooperate with His santification process, He has established a system of reward and punishment to those who are eternally saved.

    This dispensation of reward or the suffering of lose is temporary. It cannot last more than 1,000 years. It may occupy some portion of that time.'

    The period after the second coming of Jesus and before the eternal age of the new heaven and the new earth is at least 1,000 years. During that time those who cooperated with the Grace given will be rewarded. Those how received what some call "Cheap Grace" may be disciplined. The degrees of reward and the degrees of chastisement vary vary.

    As any wise judge the Righteous Judge of all the earth has not one or two ways to deal with His children. He has a wide latitude of possibilities to teach His children lessons.

    On the extreme negative side I submit that a Christian could be burned temporarily by the second death. I submit that a Christian could temporarily have his name erased from the book of life.

    Because the Christians is saved eternally by faith and not works, the reward is temporary. And the punishment also is temporary. Any believer having his name erased from the book of life should have it marked again in the book of all those eternally saved. And any Christian hurt of the second death should only be so for a limited amount of time.

    I do not know the length of either situation. I believe that it could not exceed 1,000 years. I believe at current that it may be some portion of that time.
  6. Joined
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    11 Aug '09 23:482 edits
    Now we come to the synoptic gospels. I think this passage will now make sense to some of you for the first time.

    Jesus here is speaking to His own disciples. To them the issue of eternal redemption should, I think, be settled. Yet He gives them a warning:

    "So if your right eye stumbles you, cut it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than for your whole body be cast into Gehenna.

    And if your right hand stumbles you, cut it off and cast it from you, for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than for your whole body to pass away into Gehenna." (Matt. 5:29,30)



    The context is resisting sexual immorality. The audience is the disciples of Jesus.

    The point is not that His disciples would actually cut off their limbs. This would not help anyway for the lust is inward. The point is to deal thoroughly with the motive of such a sin at any cost.

    The point is that the disciple must realize the seriousness of being stumbled by his immorality. It may cause him to be burned in the Gehenna.

    Remember, Jesus said that the believers in Smyrna who overcame would not be hurt of the second death. The second death is the lake of fire. And here is Matthew Jesus is telling the disciples in essence:

    " You have to deal with the motive of such a sin seriously. You have to deal with the stumbling lust which defiles your discipleship with all seriousness. If you do not you could be burned in the fire."


    Put the two verses together and you should be able to see that to be burned is a possibility to the Christian disciple.

    Now we who are Christians are not expected to actually pluck out our eyes or cut off our hands. Paul said that by the Holy Spirit we were to put to death the practices of the body.

    Paul elaborated in Romans 6 through 8 that we have been crucified with Christ. We have to put our selves in the realm of the Holy Spirit that the practices of the body may be nullified. We have to learn to walk by the Spirit to put to death the habits of the fallen sin filled flesh. He has the grace to help us. And He will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able. He will make a way of escape.

    That escape is His Spirit. We can call on the name of the Lord Jesus and receive grace.

    Now if I do not interpret Matthew 5:29,30 this way what does it do for me?

    Man is eternally saved by faith in Christ. It is not of works. It is the gift of God. We simply receive Christ as the gift of God.

    Man cannot be eternally redeemed by his works. He cannot cut off his hand and be redeemed forever. He cannot pluck out his eye and be redeemed forever. He can only be redeemed forever through faith in Christ. Christ has done the work on Calvary to Justify him forever.

    But what about reward and discipline during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom?

    I submit that in some cases a saved Christian may be hurt by the fire. One matter which may cause him to be hurt of the second death fire is the failure to overcome the lust of his flesh. For this reason Christ taught His disciples that the motive of such a sin has to be dealt with with all seriousness.

    The matter of lust is only one matter. The warnings are general enough to indicate that the believers may suffer loss. The suffering of loss may be light. But the suffering of loss may be heavy. The suffering of loss may be very heavy. And the suffering of loss may be for the believer to taste temporarily something of what is to happen to the unbeliever.

    Because the warning of the kingdom is so serious the Christian has to really look to Jesus for grace to overcome. He cannot of his own power overcome. He must learn to abide in Christ and experience Christ as the indwelling victorious one.
  7. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 07:11
    Uh, man, you really like your own threads, don't you? Forgive my Swedishness, but what's dispensational?
  8. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 07:19
    What nationality do you have, jigtie?
  9. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 07:37
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    What nationality do you have, jigtie?
    What's nationality?
  10. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 08:05
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    What's nationality?
    Nationality is something to use when you want to offend someone. 🙂
  11. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 09:453 edits
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Uh, man, you really like your own threads, don't you? Forgive my Swedishness, but what's dispensational?
    ================================
    Uh, man, you really like your own threads, don't you? Forgive my Swedishness, but what's dispensational?
    =================================


    In the total history of God's dealing with man, the Bible indicates that there are periods in which He has a certain principle which seem to govern His dealings with people respective to that age.

    The Brethren teachers were called Dispensationalists. Some of them identified seven dispensations or ages in the Bible in which God dealt with man according to different principles.

    However, some of us think there is a simple way and biblical way the Scriptures outlines these dispensations into four.


    1.) From Adam to the Law of Moses (Rom. 5:14).
    2.) From the Law of Moses until the coming of Jesus (John 1:17).
    3.) From the First coming of Jesus to the second coming (Acts 3:20-21)
    4.) From the second coming to the end of the millennium (Rev. 11:15; 20:4,5).

    This is a brief explanation. Dispensational used by me here means that for a period of time God deals with His people according to a certain principle.

    The Dispensational Punishment of Christians means by me that after the second coming of Christ until the end of the millennial kingdom, Christians are under a principle dealing of being rewarded or disciplined by Christ according to how they lived their Christian lives during the age of Grace or the church age.

    Some teachers say there is a danger in strictly speaking of dispensational "ages". They do have a point. But generally I use it to denote an age.

    This is only a general and brief explanation. Does it help?
  12. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 09:52
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Uh, man, you really like your own threads, don't you? Forgive my Swedishness, but what's dispensational?
    ========================
    Uh, man, you really like your own threads, don't you?
    =========================


    Consider it kind of like a blog until someone else contributes to the discussion. I cannot dictate how it will develop because it is a public forum.
  13. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 10:01
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Uh, man, you really like your own threads, don't you? Forgive my Swedishness, but what's dispensational?
    What does your not understanding dispensational have to do with you being Swedish ? I missed the connection.
  14. Joined
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    12 Aug '09 10:14
    Originally posted by jaywill
    What does your not understanding dispensational have to do with you being Swedish ? I missed the connection.
    Thank you for answering my question. English not being my native language, there are words I don't
    understand and which my dictionaries couldn't explain, that's what I meant by forgive my
    Swedishness. Me being a Swede and all.

    🙂
  15. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
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    12 Aug '09 10:38
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]========================
    Uh, man, you really like your own threads, don't you?
    =========================


    Consider it kind of like a blog until someone else contributes to the discussion. I cannot dictate how it will develop because it is a public forum.[/b]
    are The Brethren a split from the Anabaptist movement?
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