1. Cape Town
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    13 Oct '06 06:41
    This came up in the Evolution thread but is really unrelated to evolution so I have started a new thread.
    I have started similar threads before but for some reason I get very few takers.

    Originally posted by Penguin
    Not sure what you mean by divisibility. I suspect the religious will have some distinction between conciousness and 'soul'.

    I see 2 possibilities.

    1. Each soul is eternal (has always been and will always be) and our time on Earth is a brief moment in this existance. That implies either that there is a fixed limit to the number of people that can exist, or we re-incarnate and some souls get mutliple lives, or there is an infinite supply of souls and some never get a go.

    2. Each soul is created when the 'host' body is conceived or born (or some time over the next months and years as research suggests is the case with conciousness). In which case surely it must cease to exist when the host body dies.

    Of course there's always the 3rd possibility: there is no such thing as a 'soul'.

    --- Penguin


    By divisibility I mean that if the soul is assigned at conception then twins either share a soul or the soul divided. If the soul is assigned at birth then if we divide a human brain in two and place one half in another body (theoretically possible) then the same would apply. People with dual personalities suffer from the same issue.

    I would also like to know whether Christians believe that conciousness remains with the soul and if so is it a continuation of thier conciousness from the point of death or some new conciousness. If the claim is that it doesnt then how does the soul experience emotions(such as pain and anguish mentioned in hell and happiness in heaven)?

    What is the definition of 'life' in christian language because the soul does not fit any of the requirements of the word in scientific language (reproduction etc). In fact in scientific language it doesnt even 'exist' if it doesnt take on physical form.
  2. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Oct '06 14:371 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    This came up in the Evolution thread but is really unrelated to evolution so I have started a new thread.
    I have started similar threads before but for some reason I get very few takers.

    Originally posted by Penguin
    [b]Not sure what you mean by divisibility. I suspect the religious will have some distinction between conciousness and 'soul'.

    act in scientific language it doesnt even 'exist' if it doesnt take on physical form.
    [/b]Good questions.

    “Soul” has a bunch of usages; I have separated out the following from the dictionary, just so that those that don’t pertain to your question might be excluded from the get-go—


    (1) the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life—

    —one dictionary adds: “regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.”


    (2) the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings

    (3) a person's total self [body and mind; intellect, emotions, sensations, perspective, tendencies, self-reference, etc.]

    (4) the moral and emotional nature of human beings

    (5) the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment

    (6) spiritual or moral force (fervor)

    (7) a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor)

    I put (1) in bold, because that seems to be the definition you’re getting at; although (2) is related.

    For my part, as long as “soul” is used just as (a) a “principle;” or (b) as a useful label for being/feeling alive, energized, etc. (much like elan vital), without being treated as a substance in itself; or (c) something like the sense of definition (3), for purposes of reference—then I have no problem. It’s when soul is treated as a “thing”—a substance is assumed from the substantive—that your questions take on relevance.

    __________________________________

    With that said, there seem to be two religious views in treating the soul as a substance:

    I. That the soul is separable and distinct from the physical body. Those who think in this way can speak of “a mortal body and an immortal soul;” of the soul being “in” the body; and of such things as eternal souls, transmigration of souls, etc.

    II. That the whole person is composed of an inseparable body and soul. This is the basic idea behind Christian beliefs about resurrection.

    Those who hold these two differing views are likely to answer your questions differently...
  3. Joined
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    13 Oct '06 22:13
    A third possibility occured to me and was also given on the Evolution thread as the way Christians generally see it:

    The soul is created with the body (with disagreements about when it actually comes into existance) but is then separate from the body and not dependant on it. Hense it can be eternal once created.

    I personally prefer my last option - there's no such thing. It's a concept with no real existance. There's no evidence for anything else.

    --- Penguin
  4. Ketchikan, Alaska
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    13 Oct '06 22:17
    In my belief souls can be created but they aren't created with the body. In my oppinion souls are eternal unless destroyed, and trust me. Iv'e seen people withought souls, people that had them before certain things visited them.
  5. Standard memberHand of Hecate
    Merciless Vagabond
    Deep in it.
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    13 Oct '06 23:041 edit
    Originally posted by Dracos Chikou
    In my belief souls can be created but they aren't created with the body. In my oppinion souls are eternal unless destroyed, and trust me. Iv'e seen people withought souls, people that had them before certain things visited them.
    You watch a lot of TV don't you. Shall we refer to you as Mulder from here on out? Or whats that recent flick with Kanoe Reeves with all the demons n' stuff... Constapation or Constantine or something or other.

    How much will you sell your soul for? I offer very competitive rates.
  6. Standard memberPalynka
    Upward Spiral
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    14 Oct '06 08:461 edit
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    You watch a lot of TV don't you. Shall we refer to you as Mulder from here on out? Or whats that recent flick with Kanoe Reeves with all the demons n' stuff... Constapation or Constantine or something or other.

    How much will you sell your soul for? I offer very competitive rates.
    'Ghostbusters' is especially enlightening on this topic.
  7. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    15 Oct '06 03:22
    Originally posted by Dracos Chikou
    In my belief souls can be created but they aren't created with the body. In my oppinion souls are eternal unless destroyed, and trust me. Iv'e seen people withought souls, people that had them before certain things visited them.
    If sould are eternal, then how can they be created?
  8. DonationPawnokeyhole
    Krackpot Kibitzer
    Right behind you...
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    15 Oct '06 10:29
    Originally posted by Dracos Chikou
    In my belief souls can be created but they aren't created with the body. In my oppinion souls are eternal unless destroyed, and trust me. Iv'e seen people withought souls, people that had them before certain things visited them.
    What are the telltale signs that something immaterial is missing from something material?
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