1. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    18 Sep '15 12:112 edits
    ToO I would like to know if you would bring your comments over about Ezekiel's warnings to this new discussion. I thought it was an interesting point which I didn't have time to discuss before.

    But first I would like to re-ask what I think was a fair question I asked you months ago for which I don't recall an answer.

    Would you answer please ?

    The Question:

    Are you interested in moving from Atheism to Theism and so you refer to Judaism's rabbinical teachings? Or do you want to utilize rabbinical teachings of Judaism only because they are useful to you in launching an Atheistic argument against the Christian Gospel ?

    And if you don't think the question is fair, tell me why ?
    I think it is a perfectly fair question for me to ask.
  2. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    18 Sep '15 23:323 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    ToO I would like to know if you would bring your comments over about [b]Ezekiel's warnings to this new discussion. I thought it was an interesting point which I didn't have time to discuss before.

    But first I would like to re-ask what I think was a fair question I asked you months ago for which I don't recall an answer.

    Would you answer please ...[text shortened]... ink the question is fair, tell me why ?
    I think it is a perfectly fair question for me to ask.[/b]
    Well, there's the fact that it's a false dichotomy built upon loaded questions.

    Be that as it may, as I recall someone had posted a question and you responded with an explanation that included how you viewed something from the OT. I suggested that he should consider Judaism's views of the same text since they are very different from your views and are probably better considered since they are their primary texts. If someone is seeking truth, it seems prudent to consider all viewpoints. Don't know why that isn't a good enough reason for you.

    But perhaps I don't have the same situation in mind as you do. If you can point me to the posts in question, I'll take a look.

    You wanted to talk about Ezekiel?
  3. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    19 Sep '15 13:053 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Well, there's the fact that it's a false dichotomy built upon loaded questions.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The question could be evaded this way.

    Be that as it may, as I recall someone had posted a question and you responded with an explanation that included how you viewed something from the OT.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This Old Testament book is my book, absolutely. It is not mine in the second hand sense that you argue from. It starts with an explanation of God creating the WORLD not just God forming the Jewish nation.

    This book opens with an explanation of God creating MAN in His own image. This revelation is not owned by me in a second hand way. As a created man on earth with a relationship to my Creator, this revelation is for me.

    Yawheh of Israel calls ALL the earth to turn to Him. Yes, God did take out the nation of Israel to be a peculiar possession to Himself. But the same God calls ALL the earth to turn to Him to be saved.

    "Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else.

    I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return, That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear.

    It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength ... " (See Isaiah 45:22-24)


    This is MY book. And you can tell your Jewish friends that whether rabbis or Hebrew scholars. These 39 books of the Hebrew Bible are mine too.

    God chose Israel in order to REACH the Gentile nations of all the earth as well. So this Old Testament is mine even though I am not an Orthodox Jew.

    I suggested that he should consider Judaism's views of the same text since they are very different from your views and are probably better considered since they are their primary texts. If someone is seeking truth, it seems prudent to consider all viewpoints. Don't know why that isn't a good enough reason for you.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't mine anyone consulting Judaism's view. But the Old Testament amply indicates that JUST because a Jew was a recipient of God's words does not mean he could not be an opposing counter-revelation critic against God's words.

    The Israelites sought to stone Moses and secure another leader to lead them back to Egypt. And Jesus explained that in the Old Testament God sometimes secured more FAITH and obedience from a Gentile.

    " But in truth I say to you, There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the earth.

    And to none of them was Elijah sent except to the city of Serepta of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.

    And there were many lepers in Israel during the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them were cleansed, except Naaman the Syrian." (Luke 4:25-27)


    God at crucial times was reaching out to whoever would have faith.
    And He even proclaims a time when His people would be Egypt and Assyria along with Israel.

    " In that day Israel will be the third party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the land,

    With which Jehovah of hosts will bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands and Israel My inheritance." (Isaiah 19:24,25)


    Don't try to overplay the Jewish ownership card. Or you may continue to try to play it but it will have no effect at all on me because this whole Bible is my book.

    God did indeed obtain a personal treasure in Israel but He also said ALL the earth was His as well.

    " Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My personal treasure from among all the peoples, for ALL THE EARTH IS MINE." (Exodus 19:5)


    We do not have to be Orthodox Jews to listen to God speaking in the 39 OT books to all His created people.
  4. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    19 Sep '15 13:53
    This looks like a good place to talk. Elaborate a bit more on this.

    According to Ezekiel, God would disagree the "good news" is required:

    Ezekiel 18
    27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”



    Jesus would also disagree:

    John 8
    31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

    34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
  5. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    19 Sep '15 14:35
    I think ToO wrote this:

    According to Ezekiel, God would disagree the "good news" is required:


    The New Covenant was already prophesied to come in the OT. When it came it was the Gospel or Good News. It is good news that the New Covenant has been enacted.

    In this new covenant there is BOTH God's forgiveness and God regulating a man's life to live righteously. We should not think that FORGIVENESS and REGULATION unto righteous living are were mutually exclusive. They were both promised and they both comprise the new covenant.

    We'll see how below:

    " Indeed days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
    Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt which they broke, although I was their Husband, declares Jehovah." (Jer. 31:31,32)


    This is the promise of a new covenant. And here are the contents in FOUR aspects:

    "But this is the covenant which I will make ...

    1.) [quote] [b] "I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts;


    Something living will be written into man's inward being. This is the living Holy Spirit with His law of divine life. God will impart or write His living Spirit into the recipients of the new covenant.

    2.)
    "I will be their God and they will be My people"


    This should be that God and the new covenant recipients become intimately related BECAUSE of what has transpired above. Namely, He dispenses His law of life as the Holy Spirit into their being.

    3.)
    "And they will no longer teach, each one his neighbor and each man his brother saying K now Jehovah, for all of them will know Me, from the little one among them even to the great one among them."


    Each one receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit will have a subjective union with the living God as their begetting Father. The new covenant causes man to be born again, born of God. And regardless of social status or rank each born again one has fellowship with God inwardly.

    4.)
    " ... for I will forgive their iniquities and their sin I will remember no more."


    This is propitiation. This is forgiveness. God will by no means remember their sins because He has a way to totally forgive them through His eternal redemption.

    As you can see ToO - In the New Covenant there is BOTH God coming INTO people to inwardly transform their living AND there is God promising to no longer remember their sins and iniquities.

    There is room in this covenant both for the gift of eternal life and through cooperation the growth and maturation of sons of God learning to walk according to God.

    In other words there is deliverance from both the guilt of sinning and the power of sinning. Within that scope there is room for discipline, development, maturation, even chastisement as well as eternal life.
  6. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    19 Sep '15 14:38
    Originally posted by sonship
    This looks like a good place to talk. Elaborate a bit more on this.

    According to Ezekiel, God would disagree the "good news" is required:

    Ezekiel 18
    27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away ...[text shortened]... the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
    I elaborated on that to both KJ and Rajk999 on the 'Moral Codes and Self-Centered Beliefs regarding Adherence' thread. Have you read through my discussions with them?
  7. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    19 Sep '15 16:47
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I elaborated on that to both KJ and Rajk999 on the 'Moral Codes and Self-Centered Beliefs regarding Adherence' thread. Have you read through my discussions with them?
    Yes I read much of it. And the aspect to which I respond here was on your comments on an Ezekiel passage.
  8. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    19 Sep '15 17:222 edits
    ToO, I hust noticed this which I might have written something like myself.

    Bigger picture, what is required is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin.


    All along to pathway from child to an adult son God can still discipline and chastise the one eternally redeemed. This means that he can still miss the mark.

    You have to include the exhortation of the book of Hebrews when understanding God's dealings with His sons:

    Hebrews 12:4-9

    "You have not resisted unto blood struggling against sin. (v.4)

    And you have completely forgotten the exhortation which reasons with you as SONS, 'My SON, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faith when reproved by Him. (v.5)

    For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every SON whom He receives. (v.6)

    It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with SONS. For what SON is there whom the father does not discipline ? (v.7)

    For if you are without discipline, of which all SONS have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not SONS. (v.8)

    Furthermore we have had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners and we respected them; shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? (v.9)



    As you can plainly see, the SONS of God are still subject to correction, discipline, chastisement, etc. , for their development. This has to means that SONS can still have failures and sins needing the Father's correction.

    In the age of the new heaven and new earth in eternity future, the sons will have all been perfected to be pure and spotless before God in full sinless maturity.

    What a fantastic destiny!

    "Even as He chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ ... " (Eph. 1:4,5a)
  9. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    21 Sep '15 16:12

    Jesus would also disagree:

    John 8
    31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

    34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.



    I think that what ToO was saying is that the gospel of grace is against this kind of passage from the New Testament. He has argued this in the past.

    Perhaps he means any sinning slave of sin CANNOT be in the house of God forever whereas any sinless and free man made so by the Son of God can continue eternally in the house of God.

    I would first give ThinkOfOne a chance to tell me if my paragraph is fairly representative of his concept based on this passage John 8:31-36.

    ToO, have a fairly summarized what it is you wish to demonstrate by the reference to this passage?

    He might be right, you know ? Let's see if he agrees with my summary.
  10. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    22 Sep '15 01:59
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote]
    Jesus would also disagree:

    John 8
    31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘Y ...[text shortened]... nce to this passage?

    He might be right, you know ? Let's see if he agrees with my summary.
    Hey Jaywill, I haven't forgotten about this thread. I'll should be able to get to it tomorrow.
  11. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    22 Sep '15 23:452 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    ToO, I hust noticed this which I might have written something like myself.

    Bigger picture, what is required is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits si ...[text shortened]... m in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ ... " (Eph. 1:4,5a)
    [/b]
    Interesting that you say you might have written something like the following yourself. Good to know at least we agree on the following:
    Bigger picture, what is required is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin.


    Jesus used three different metaphors to express the same concepts.

    Another thing that needs to be understood is that in these metaphors, Jesus speaks in strict dichotomy:
    1) One is either a "good tree" or a "bad tree" and one's fruit is either all "good" or all "bad".
    Matthew 7
    17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

    2) One is either a "slave" or a "son". Everyone who commits sin is a "slave". Everyone else is a "son".
    John 8
    34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

    3) One has been "born of the spirit" or one hasn't.
    John 3
    6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    Another thing that needs to be understood in these metaphors, is what happens to those that have been transformed vs. those that have not been transformed.

    1) Everyone who is not a "good tree", is thrown into the fire.
    Matthew 7
    19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    2) "Slaves" do not "remain in the house forever". "Sons" do "remain in the house forever".
    John 8
    35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.

    3) Only those who have been "born of the spirit" can enter the Kingdom of God. Those that have not been "born of the spirit" cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
    John 3
    5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    So "good trees" no longer commit sin and are the only ones who are not "cast into the fire".

    So "sons" no longer commit sin and are the only ones that remain in the house forever.

    So those "born of the spirit" no longer commit sin and are the only ones that can enter into the Kingdom of God.

    The same basic concepts expressed in three different metaphors.
  12. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    23 Sep '15 05:272 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Jesus used three different metaphors to express the same concepts.

    Another thing that needs to be understood is that in these metaphors, Jesus speaks in strict dichotomy:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    My reply will take more than one post.


    1) One is either a "good tree" or a "bad tree" and one's fruit is either all "good" or all "bad".
    Matthew 7


    And the Apostle Paul, pioneering into the experience of living in Christ, echoes the same in such words as these:

    " I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ... " (Gal. 2:20a)


    The bad tree is "I" - apart from Christ, independent from God, alone either in good doing OR bad doing. This ego has been crucified.

    The good tree is "Christ who lives in me" - the indwelling of Christ in Paul; the union of Christ with Paul; the mingling of Christ with Paul; and the dispensing of Jesus Christ, alive and available into Paul.

    " ... but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God. who loved me and gave Himself up for me."


    The bad tree - the ego of Paul without faith, unregenerated, under the law keeping of Judaism.

    The good tree - Paul indwelt by Christ and living by faith in that truth. That is "no longer" living apart from Christ but step by step in oneness Him, by faith.

    We see the "good tree" verses "bad tree" also much in Romans.

    "Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ? " (Rom. 6:3)


    The bad tree - having no union with Christ.
    The good tree - having been buried with Christ, utter union with His death.

    "We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in the newness of life." (v.4)


    Bad tree - Christ's resurrection having no effect on one's living.
    Good tree - Christ's resurrection operating within the believer by faith, He is in the realm walking in the newness of divine life.

    "For it we have GROWN together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection." (v.5)


    This verse is significant because of the phrase "grown together". This strongly implies a process of growth; development; the encrease of the effect of union with Christ.

    The good tree is of course a growing tree.
    Again there is a contrast, a dichotomy between "the old man" and the regenerated man in union with Christ and what Christ has attained.

    "Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves." (v.6)


    The bad tree - the old man - apart from Christ serving sin as a slave.
    The good tree - the man seeing and no longer ignorant. He is living in faith that all the old living has been annulled.

    The Christian is to "put on" this old man through transformation. This is the same as growth in Rom. 6.

    "That you put off as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality." (Eph. 6:22-24)


    The bad tree - "the old man" which is being corrupted still.
    The good tree - "the new man" - coming about through transformation via the renewing of the mind - created according to God. This is God being dispensed into man.


    17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.


    This goes without saying. If there were any hope in the old man Christ would not have to cause it to be crucified with Him. His death is not only redemptive as to the cleansing of His blood. It is also TERMINATING in that the old man is replaced. No longer I that lives, but Christ that lives within me.

    Cont. below
  13. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    23 Sep '15 06:111 edit
    Paul as one pioneer into the experience of Christ echoes the teaching of Christ in God inspired words of Christian experience.


    2) One is either a "slave" or a "son". Everyone who commits sin is a "slave". Everyone else is a "son".
    John 8
    34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.


    So Paul speaks of the process of being freed from all slavery to sin.

    "Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we shouold no longer serve sin as slaves." (v.6)


    Freedom comes with KNOWING. And knowing comes by revelation of the divine FACTS. The believer has been crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and raised with Christ.

    It is not a matter of feelings or of sentimentality. It is a matter of grasping in faith the reality of the real facts of God. Liberation comes with standing on the divine facts.

    "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him."


    Liberation is in union with the living and available Christ who can be known and can indeed live in us as "life giving Spirit" -

    " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    Life giving Spirit means the living and available Christ GIVES God into man. He gives Christ into man. He gives what Christ has obtained and attained into man with Christ. His death can be given into us to kill off the old life. His resurrection can be given to us to renew us, raise us to walk in newness of life.

    Union with the living Christ brings liberation that we may no longer serve sin as slaves.

    " Knowing that ... "


    That is realizing the facts and no longer be deceived by Satan. That is appropriating the benefit of Christ in us by faith. No longer being ignorant - "Or are you ignorant ...?".

    IE. "Don't you yet REALIZE, Roman Christians, that Jesus Christ lives in you? Like me as one overcoming and pioneering into this rich salvation, YOU TOO have been crucified with, buried with, and raised with Jesus Christ. Do not remain ignorant of the truth."

    "Knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead dies no more, death lords it over Him no more. For the death which He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life which He lives, He lives to God

    So also you, reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (vs. 9-11)


    On deeper and deeper levels the realization grows. The one in union with the risen Christ is dead to sin and alive to God. He is not striving to resist the bad or strenuously laboring to do the good. Rather he is saying "Amen" to the fact of being now dead to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ.

    This means living in the Holy Spirit who IS the indwelling Christ - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    "So also reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but living to God in Christ Jesus. " (v.11)


    The way to do this reckoning is more elaborated in chapter 8. Chapter 6 cannot be entered into except with the experiences of chapter 8 - setting the mind on the spirit united with the Spirit of Christ.

    Here's a preview into all that Paul explains about this freedom in Christ's Spirit which is in the human spirit of the regenerated believer.

    [b] "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. " (8:4)


    The incredible benefits of union with Christ is appropriated by walking step by step minding the Spirit of Christ Who lives in the reborn human spirit. The just requirement of the law is fulfilled by this walk according to the mingled spirit - the Spirit of Christ WITH the human spirit.

    I will not exhaustively speak on Romans 8 now, as if one could.

    But the point is there is no discrepancy between the teaching of Jesus and that of his pioneering apostles, namely Paui here.
    Paul shows the way to get into this freedom from serving sin like a slave.

    And Paul shows that this walk is being led by the Spirit to become a son of God.

    " For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. " )v.14)


    And Paul continues to show that this intimate, subjective enjoyment of oneness with the Triune God - the Father and the Son - frees from slavery of all kinds.

    " For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry Abba Father!

    The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.

    And if children, heirs also; on the one hand, heirs of God; on the other, joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may be also glorified with Him." (vs.15-17)


    Because the regenerated children of God are like Salmon fish swimming against the strong current, there must be some suffering involved. The current of the whole world is in a different direction carrying people AWAY from God.

    Walking in the Holy Spirit is therefore is living and walking against the strong current of the world. While it leads to freedom it does involved temporarily some suffering.

    I'll stop this post here.
  14. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    23 Sep '15 06:592 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    So those "born of the spirit" no longer commit sin and are the only ones that can enter into the Kingdom of God.

    The same basic concepts expressed in three different metaphors.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Rather it is those who are born and have become full grown who are presented without blemish before God. If you cannot see this in the third chapter of John you can see it elsewhere in the Gospels.

    Notice that in the kingdom of the heavens there are different degrees of renown in the millennial manifestation.

    " Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19)


    This is Christ's warning that He did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfill (v.17).

    The facts must be clear:

    1.) Both the man called least in the kingdom and the man called great in the kingdom must be born again.

    2.) Both are IN the kingdom of the heavens.

    3.) One has matured to a greater level than the other.
    Whereas one was lenient towards certain requirements of God and taught others to be lenient, the other was stricter and taught others to be so also.

    4.) Though BOTH are participating in the kingdom, one will be known as least in the kingdom while the other will be known as great in the kingdom.

    5.) Since some maturity is still wanting for one this must be the kingdom during the age BEFORE the new heaven and new earth when ALL believers have been perfected to the uttermost. That is the kingdom of the heavens in which there is rank according to maturity is that stage of the kingdom during the 1,000 years.

    In the eternal age after the millennial kingdom ALL will have been perfected.

    "I in them and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one ... " (John 17:23a)

    "But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the UTTERMOST those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Heb. 7:24,25)

    "That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish." (Eph. 5:27)

    "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself ..." (Eph. 1:4,5a)


    The important point here is that though ALL arrive at this sinless state, not all will arrive at the same time. He has this age, the next age of 1,000 years.

    So Paul says "until we all arrive ..." and Jesus said that His people eventually will all be PERFECTED.

    He has begun a good work in every believer. And He will complete it.

    "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun in you a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus ... " (Phil. 1:6)


    Interesting that you say you might have written something like the following yourself. Good to know at least we agree on the following:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is correct. Something LIKE it, but not exactly like it. You included the words -

    A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin.


    My reference to Hebrews 12 showed God's ongoing perfecting discipline upon His SONS. In other words being a SON of the Father does not necessarily imply NO further discipline is needed from the Father.

    And if it is complained that the concept in Hebrews is somehow contrary to the words of Jesus. Jesus called His disciples His brothers after His resurrection. And obviously Peter still needed perfecting. As a representative disciple, the rest of the believers as brothers of the Son of God also need perfecting on the way to maturity.

    "Jesus said to her, [at His resurrection appearance to her] Do not touch Me, but go to my BROTHERS and say to them, I ascend to My Father and YOUR FATHER, and My God and YOUR God." (John 20:17)


    After this time BROTHER Peter, a child of the Father, a growing son of the divine Father, still backslide, needing scolding from Paul, and correction from Jesus was obviously a son under the Father's continued discipline. He was being perfected to be transformed out of all failure and sinning still.

    Since his name is seen on the foundation of the perfect city (Revelation 21:14), New Jerusalem, in eternity future, we know that Peter and all of us who have believed will eventually be perfected sons of the Father.
  15. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    23 Sep '15 07:151 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    This was a bad typo by me.

    The Christian is to "put on" this old man through transformation. This is the same as growth in Rom. 6.


    I meant to write "put off" the old man so to "put on" the new man.

    Emphatically we are not taught to put on the old man. We are told to put him off through transformation and spiritual renewing of the mind by the Holy Spirit.
Back to Top