Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually it is far from decided yet. There have always been alternative theories around, and even the more popular versions of big bang theory do not make any claims about whether or not the universe is eternal. At best there has only been speculation.
The latest scientific american has an article suggesting a possible scenario in which the universe is e n do I believe in miracles too?
Why do you call an uncaused universe a 'miracle'?
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Actually it is far from decided yet. There have always been alternative theories around, and even the more popular versions of big bang theory do not make any claims about whether or not the universe is eternal. At best there has only been speculation.
The latest scientific american has an article suggesting a possible scenario in which the universe is eternal. The cover says we should change "Big Bang" to "Big Bounce".
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At first glance this sounds like back some variant of a Steady State Theory. Or was it the infinitly expanding and collapsing universe?
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I think there are two choices - either the universe is eternal or something that caused the universe to come about is eternal.
You are setting up a false dichotomy. There are other well known possibilities some of which you are perfectly well aware of as you have participated in threads discussing them. Here are a couple:
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1. An infinite chain of causes and events.
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I think that has convincingly been demonstrated to me as impossible. So I regard an infinite regress of this kind to be unlikely.
Mathematically, I believe that I have also been persuaded that we could not arrive at TODAY if time has an infinite past.
It would take infinity to traverse infinity. But we are at the time of now - today. At the present time I am persuaded that this argues against an ever existing universe.
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2. A universe with a finite time dimension (and thus no 'cause'😉.
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I don't know what this means.
I am not sure that you yourself know what this means.
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I take the second choice. Something outside of time, space, and matter is eternal and caused the universe to come into existence.
But the problem is language totally breaks down when you try to explain what you mean by 'caused' in a context 'outside' time, space, and matter. The whole concept of something being 'outside' does not make sense.
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I agree with the limitation of human language to express something in the divine realm.
So "outside of time" or "before the universe" are adaquate phrases to express what is beyond our ability to completely comprehend.
Now, this may sting my human ego for a little bit. I mean "Something that we Don't UNDERSTAND ?? Why we can understand EVERYTHING."
So as much as it may annoy me that there are things we cannot fully comprehend, I am willing to accept that. You see, I believe that the Love of God fills that void.
Sometimes as a child my parents did things which I did not understand. Maybe with more maturity in life those things became more understandable.
Anyway, there is a limit to what our human language can express.
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The athiest who says the universe is eternal argues against the accumlation of evidence that the universe had a beginning.
It is irrelevant whether someone is atheist or not when he makes a claim that the universe is eternal. You are wrong about the evidence - there is currently no solid evidence either way - only speculation.
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Sounds to me like you are afraid to commit to any specific one scientific theory.
It sounds to me like you want very badly to keep all options open and not commit to any science theory too strongly.
So you are now a Beginningless - Big Bang exponent? Or you are a Big Bounce advocate or what ?
Why don't you just admit that you are first and foremost an ATHEIST? The rest is just minor details.
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So you believe that miracles follow certain laws too? ie they must be caused? If I believe in quantum mechanics where most quantum events are uncaused, then do I believe in miracles too?
Why do you call an uncaused universe a 'miracle'?
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Because it is outside the realm of scientific inquiry and discovery. Science, among other things, is a search for
causes.
No cause argues for the supernatural. The supernatural implies the miraculous.
And for me it is logical that the Creator of the universe is of endless power and limitless knowledge and wisdom as to cause a miracle. To me this is logical.
But a miracle without a miracle worker I think is senseless. I think it requires much MORE "faith" to believe in a causeless miracle poping up from nothing.
"I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."
Out of nothing nothing comes.