Originally posted by jaywill
I don't think numbers are as significant as the timing and the quality of Jewish scholars who should have recognized theologically, that God was answering their prayers and His own promises.
Were there millions of Jews on the earth or only hundreds or only thousands? I think that is secondary to the reaction of the scribes, chief priests, Pharisees, Sad ...[text shortened]... ament simply has its hands on too much genuine sounding testimonial to be dismissed as fiction.
...who should have recognized theologically, that God was answering their prayers and His own promises.
Well, this goes back to my post about multifaceted Jewish viewpoints on messiah, and that “theological messianism” was not some kind of creedal doctrine. To say “should have” is to speak from an already assumptive Christian viewpoint.
It also has a lot to do with how you read the texts, and Jews read them wholly differently from (most) Christians—midrashic exegesis is a different paradigm.
The rest of your points are well-taken. Jews have said, over the centuries, why they don’t think Jesus was
the messiah. But they don’t make that the center of their religious life. Jews do not think of their religion as “non-Christianity.” Nor is it “the religion of the ‘Old Testament.’” Judaism is the religion of the dual Torah (written and oral), and the written part of the oral tradition (the Talmuds and Midrashic texts) are not the corpus of the oral tradition, which continues—for example, everytime someone brings their “torah” to the Torah to search out new interpretations.
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Some notes on redemption and messianism in Judaism:
From David S. Ariel,
What Do Jews Believe?:
Martin Buber (interpreting the Hasidic understanding, which may be the most closely linked with “personal” redemption): “There is no definite magic action that is effective for redemption.; only the hallowing of all actions without distinction possesses redemptive power. Only out of the redemption of everyday does the Day of redemption
grow.” (my italics)
Reform Judaism: “More recently, the Reform concept of messianism has come to mean the result of human effort on behalf of creating the perfect world.”
Conservative Judaism: “The Conservative credo is agnostic on the question of the Messiah: ‘We do not know when the Messiah will come, nor whether he will be a charismatic figure or is a symbol of the redemption of humankind from the evils of the world..”
A difference between Judaism and Christianity: “The major Jewish objection to Christianity is that Judaism regards the Messiah as a human being, and the Christian deification of a person constitutes idolatry.”
Quoted in Jurgen Moltmann,
The Way of Jesus Christ:
Martin Buber: “We know more deeply, more truly, that world history has not been turned upside down to its very foundations—that the world is not yet redeemed. We
sense its unredeemedness….The redemption of the world is for us indivisibly one with the perfecting of creation, with the establishment of the unity which nothing more prevents, the unity which is no longer controverted, and which is realized in all the protean variety of the world. Redemption is one with the Kingdom of God in its fulfillment. An anticipation of any single part of the
completed redemption of the world—for example the redemption beforehand of the soul—is something we cannot grasp….” (italics in original)
Schalom Ben Chorin: “In Jewish eyes, redemption means redemption from all evil. Evil of body and soul, evil in creation and civilization. So when we say redemption, we mean the whole of redemption. Between creation and redemption we know only one caesura: the revelation of God’s will.”
Gershom Scholem: “It is a completely different concept of redemption which determines the attitude to messianism in Judaism and Christianity….In all its shapes and forms, Judaism has always adhered to a concept of redemption which sees it as a
process that takes place publicly, on the stage of history and in the medium of the community; in short, which essentially takes place in the visible world, and cannot be thought of except as a phenomenon that appears in what is already visible. Christianity, on the other hand, understands redemption as a happening in the spiritual sphere, and in what is invisible. It takes place in the soul, in the world of every individual, and effects a mysterious transformation to which nothing in the external world necessarily corresponds….[This] has always seemed to the religious thinkers of Judaism an illegitimate anticipation of something which could at best come about as the inward side of an event which takes place essentially in the outward world; but this inward side could never be separated from that event itself.” (my italics)
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Now, these views are not monolithic, nor are they exhaustive (I just happened to have this handy); and whether these writers’ understanding of Christianity is any better than most Christians’ understanding of Judaism, I do not know. You will, of course, be able to mount Christian counter-arguments. The arguments have gone on for a long time. The disagreement is fine; I respect your faith.
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The New Testament simply has its hands on too much genuine sounding accounts to be dismissed as fiction.
I have never dismissed the NT as wholly fiction, nor accepted it as wholly fact. I tend to view a lot of it as a midrashic weaving of text and history and religious symbolism. Matthew was a skilled midrashist. Paul was a profound midrashist (who could quote the Jewish Scriptures from the Hebrew, Greek Septuagint, or Aramaic Targum versions, depending on what he wanted to emphasize).