Free Will is "now"..

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your future is "the " future for you but for God it is already past. Hitler's future is your past , it all depends from which aspect of the time dimension you are looking from. You are on a particular point in the dimension of time , hitler is on another. What he sees is not what you see. God sees something else entirely. Your concept of "the" future seems quite egocentric and based entirely on your perspective only.

I misunderstood your use of quotes on the word 'the'. I thought you meant 'unique'.

I disagree about your perspective claims, and your claim that I am egocentric is wrong, as you are merely projecting your own views on me.
I think Hitlers future is the same whether viewed by him, by me or by some hypothetical God. How can you claim that it is different? Are you saying that in Gods eyes he didn't start WWII? Please enlighten us.

Originally posted by Quirine
I agree with you.
Knowing the outcome of choices made in the past does not mean that free will does not exist. (It doesn't mean that free will exists as well but that's beside the point)

Otto

But can you justify your argument.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I misunderstood your use of quotes on the word 'the'. I thought you meant 'unique'.

I disagree about your perspective claims, and your claim that I am egocentric is wrong, as you are merely projecting your own views on me.
I think Hitlers future is the same whether viewed by him, by me or by some hypothetical God. How can you claim that it is different? Are you saying that in Gods eyes he didn't start WWII? Please enlighten us.

Hitler's future is the same in some ways but not in others. Hitler sees his future as unknown before him . You see Hitler's future as the past because of your relative position in the dimension in time. You are standing on a different point in time than Hitler which enables you to know his future even though for him it hasn't happened , for you it has.

This is the whole simple point. Hitler's future is knowable for you because of the particular part of the time dimension you are occupying but for Hitler it's not knowable because he's on a different part of the dimension of time. He's standing in a different place.

It's like people at a football match , if you stand in a certain place you can't see the same things as someone standing somewhere else. Some things are observable , some aren't depending on where you are sitting. God has a grandstand seat of course.

You of all people should appreciate the idea of time as a dimension like any other dimension . Why do you resist so? What would be so awful about admitting that it does makes at least some sense to think of time like this? Would it kill you to concede even this?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But can you justify your argument.

It's you that needs to prove that in order to have free will our choices must have more than one outcome IN REALITY and not just potentially. You basically say that in order for me to have some choice between A or B there must be two universes (and not one) in which I choose A and B respectively.

However , you have no evidence of another universe and all the evidence points to only one timeline and one universe. So one timeline is all we have and that information is inconclusive either way.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You of all people should appreciate the idea of time as a dimension like any other dimension . Why do you resist so? What would be so awful about admitting that it does makes at least some sense to think of time like this? Would it kill you to concede even this?

Oh, come on. I have always claimed that time is a dimension, and it is you who has repeatedly claimed that it does not exist and that dimensions are illusions. I agree with almost all of your post, and you should know that by now.

Hitler's future is the same in some ways but not in others. Hitler sees his future as unknown before him . You see Hitler's future as the past because of your relative position in the dimension in time. You are standing on a different point in time than Hitler which enables you to know his future even though for him it hasn't happened , for you it has.
But is it, or is it not, the same future? You claim that it is different. I disagree. Whether or not Hitler knows his future, whether or not he can know his future, he still has a future, and it is still the one I know he had. He therefore had no free will.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Oh, come on. I have always claimed that time is a dimension, and it is you who has repeatedly claimed that it does not exist and that dimensions are illusions. I agree with almost all of your post, and you should know that by now.

[b]Hitler's future is the same in some ways but not in others. Hitler sees his future as unknown before him . You see Hitle he still has a future, and it is still the one I know he had. He therefore had no free will.

So the mere fact that you know his future makes him not have free will? Does that mean if you didn't know what had happened in 1939 he could have had a choice? Does this mean that if God had fallen asleep for a few years Hitler could have been free to choose until God woke up? How does simply knowing what Hitler chose make it a determined choice? I don't see it , because whatever hitler chose to do your were bound to know it anyway , there was no way you couldn't know. Know why? Because you are in a priveleged position in time in relation to Hitler's future.

So you believe that Hitler's future exists before him even though for you hasn't done it yet? Does your future exist as well? Is it there in the future right now or does it only exist when you get there? Does 2012 exist at the moment or does it only exist when we all get to 2012? If it does exist then surely it's knowable , if it doesn't exist then we must be making the future exist as we go along in the present rather than following a track laid out for us.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm guessing that many of you would not have a logical problem with the following hypothetical ...(assuming God exists of course)

1) If you have free will and right now you make a free choice between A or B then God would know that choice outcome right now in this present moment.

Okay , if you see no problem with this then I would ask you to ...[text shortened]... t a matter of him being a dimension beyond what we can logically comprehend.

how many more threads saying the exactly same thing will you make?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
how many more threads saying the exactly same thing will you make?

At this present time I do not know but God knows in eternity because he's there watching me make any future threads. Mind you the only reason he knows is because for him I'm there choosing to do it. If I don't choose to do any threads that's what he will know. It still depends on me. LOL!!!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Oh, come on. I have always claimed that time is a dimension, and it is you who has repeatedly claimed that it does not exist and that dimensions are illusions. I agree with almost all of your post, and you should know that by now.

[b]Hitler's future is the same in some ways but not in others. Hitler sees his future as unknown before him . You see Hitle ...[text shortened]... he still has a future, and it is still the one I know he had. He therefore had no free will.

whether or not he can know his future, he still has a future, and it is still the one I know he had. He therefore had no free will.
---whitey---

Yes , you know he had a future . You know that at the point 1945 in the dimension of time he is killing himself. That is a choice he is making in 1945 . We do not know from this information that it was the only choice he could have made but we do know that's what he is chosing to do.

Why do you think this is a proof of some sort? It seems to me that you are saying that if someone makes a choice that it therefore proves that it can't be a free choice. Duh? If it was that easy the free will debate would have been wrapped up long ago.

Originally posted by knightmeister
At this present time I do not know but God knows in eternity because he's there watching me make any future threads. Mind you the only reason he knows is because for him I'm there choosing to do it. If I don't choose to do any threads that's what he will know. It still depends on me. LOL!!!

The God you are postulating. would know everything he ever did and was ever going to do and thus would be powerless to change HIS fate. Thus, he couldn't be omnipotent; in fact, he would be a total automation.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Oh, come on. I have always claimed that time is a dimension, and it is you who has repeatedly claimed that it does not exist and that dimensions are illusions. I agree with almost all of your post, and you should know that by now.

[b]Hitler's future is the same in some ways but not in others. Hitler sees his future as unknown before him . You see Hitle ...[text shortened]... he still has a future, and it is still the one I know he had. He therefore had no free will.

Whether or not Hitler knows his future, whether or not he can know his future, he still has a future, and it is still the one I know he had.He therefore had no free will
---whitey-------

And how do you know he chose what he did? You know it because he chose it. If he had not chosen it you could not know it could you? This applies even with determinism because he still has to make that choice in order for you to know that choice. You cannot know that choice in advance , but you can know it if that choice is made and being made in 1945. (or 1939).

Thus your knowledge from your privileged position in the time dimension is restricted by Hilter's choices . Hitler's choice is not restricted by your knowledge of what he did because if he didn't do what he did do you would know something else. If he had decided to give himself up for trial you would now know that. The realtionship between your knowledge and hitlers choices is that you are dependent on his choices for what you know.

Now this does not prove free will (and I don't pretend it does) but it does show how knowing the past does not prove that the past was determined because your are bound to know something because you are in 2008. Whatever hitler chose , you would know it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I misunderstood your use of quotes on the word 'the'. I thought you meant 'unique'.

I disagree about your perspective claims, and your claim that I am egocentric is wrong, as you are merely projecting your own views on me.
I think Hitlers future is the same whether viewed by him, by me or by some hypothetical God. How can you claim that it is different? Are you saying that in Gods eyes he didn't start WWII? Please enlighten us.

I think Hitlers future is the same whether viewed by him, by me or by some hypothetical God. How can you claim that it is different? Are you saying that in Gods eyes he didn't start WWII? Please enlighten us.---whitey============

For Hitler he has yet to start ww2 in 1938 , for you ww2 has been and gone , for God ww2 is happening eternally now . All three are different perspectives on the same thing but from different angles. Why are you being so obtuse , can't you see the difference?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm guessing that many of you would not have a logical problem with the following hypothetical ...(assuming God exists of course)

1) If you have free will and right now you make a free choice between A or B then God would know that choice outcome right now in this present moment.

Okay , if you see no problem with this then I would ask you to ...[text shortened]... t a matter of him being a dimension beyond what we can logically comprehend.

Wrong.
See it this way: it God YESTERDAY already knew what you were going to do, there's no way you can do something different.
Of course, when present time comes, you have the illusion you have two (or more) choices, but the whole world was made in a way to MAKE you chose one of them. As you live in ignorance, you seem to have the liberty to chose from, but actually, things couldn't have been other way.

You just proved he have the illusion of free-will, nothing more.

Originally posted by knightmeister
For Hitler he has yet to start ww2 in 1938 , for you ww2 has been and gone , for God ww2 is happening eternally now . All three are different perspectives on the same thing but from different angles. Why are you being so obtuse , can't you see the difference?

I have repeatedly stated that I can see it from all perspectives just as you can. Why do you keep on claiming that I cant? Why do you keep avoiding my questions? Are you really that worried that your world view will be shattered if I show the flaw in your ideas?

Now tell me, can Hitler - from any perspective, decide not to start WW2?

Originally posted by serigado
Wrong.
See it this way: it God YESTERDAY already knew what you were going to do, there's no way you can do something different.
Of course, when present time comes, you have the illusion you have two (or more) choices, but the whole world was made in a way to MAKE you chose one of them. As you live in ignorance, you seem to have the liberty to chose from, ...[text shortened]... ldn't have been other way.

You just proved he have the illusion of free-will, nothing more.

'See it this way: it God YESTERDAY already knew what you were going to do, there's no way you can do something different. Of course, when present time comes, you have the illusion you have two (or more) choices, but the whole world was made in a way to MAKE you chose one of them.'

Your reasoning isn't correct. As explained before, there's only one outcome of choices being made in the past whether those were made out of free will or not. So the outcome of choices made in the past has no relation with there being free will or not.
You have to come up with something else to prove logically that free will does not exist.
I doubt very much that that can be done at all.