Freed from Guilt and Shame by God

Originally posted by twhitehead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmJay_qdNc

[b]What does seem to be more prevalent is where they believe that because of "original sin" they aren't really responsible for their failings.
I think there is some of that. I frequently see Christians blaming Satan for everything bad, including their own actions. There is a sort of shift, from "I did wro doing it, and sometimes even admit to it. Would any of you care to participate?[/b]

However, I recently saw something about the catholic confessional (I forget exactly where, but I think possibly an RSA talk on youtube) where they said that people who do wrong, tend to feel that since they have already gone towards the dark side and a little more wrong won't hurt, whereas the confessional allows people to get a clean slate and are more likely to try and stay clean than someone who feels morally sullied.

Thanks for the link to the RSA video. Looks like an interesting series. I'll have to check out more of them. Regarding the catholic confessional portion, it seemed to be more tightly bound to the catholic world view than what you've depicted here. For the most part it was not about behavior in general until when he tried to leverage the idea of 'opening a new page' to the public in general. There he was pretty vague about the results and I suspect that there are underlying influences that can help explain the results other than the idea of getting a 'clean slate'.

I think there is some of that. I frequently see Christians blaming Satan for everything bad, including their own actions. There is a sort of shift, from "I did wrong" or "I did right" to "I chose to follow God" or "I chose to give in to Satans temptation". So it is the choice that becomes the moral action, not the actions themselves.

Sounds like an example of what the lecturer was saying about being able to distance oneself from an action.

I am not convinced that this is such a big effect as one might think. I think most theists I know do try to live a morally good life to a large degree, though some are more moral than others. In fact, I would say that it is possible that theists actually try harder than atheists, because they are regularly reminded of it.

The point I was trying to make has less to do with 'trying' than it does with effecting 'meaningful change'. For example, I have a friend for whom acts of appearing to 'try' or showing outward signs of contrition are sufficient for her to 'feel good about herself', so meaningful change never occurs. She doesn't seem to experience impactful feelings 'guilt and shame'.

I think the real flaw with religion, is it skews morality quite badly. There are two effects here:
1. Many things that are in fact immoral are coded as moral by the religion and can thus be used either as an excuse to justify something the theist knows to in fact be immoral, or can in fact actually convince the theist that it is moral.

That's a large shortcoming of the Bible. It's such a morass of conflicting and contradictory information that people can and have been able to "justify" just about anything.

2. The concept of eternity and God being infinitely greater than our tiny little meaningless lives on earth, allows theists to downplay their actions here as being insignificant. Thus they can justify anything that is for the 'greater good' ie converting others etc as being far more important than little immoral actions (such as lieing).

As well as 'justifying' just about anything as being 'good' or in the constitution of their personal moral hierarchy. As an example of the latter, from what I can tell, there are more than a few Christians for whom homosexuality is extremely heinous. For them, whenever they do something immoral, they console themselves with the thought that they aren't gay. This is true even though they cannot explain what harm it does with any sense of intellectual honesty.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Over the years I've known a number of Christians who seemed to be without conscience beyond perhaps displaying outward signs of contrition.

Perhaps the following from a post on another thread sheds light on why this may be the case:
[quote]God's grace and mercy cleans us of all our sins, we are free from the guilt and shame we have over the things we ...[text shortened]... role that conscience should take.

How common is this belief common amongst Christians?

Although one cannot discount the occasional sociopath, the Christian (whether he consciously ascends to the knowledge or not) has relinquished one system of thinking (good and evil) for another entirely different system of thinking (lives).

Under the good and evil system, guilt is a constant (think Operation Fig Leaf).
Many religious people still labor under the good and evil system, despite their real or imagined entrance into the Christian faith.
For the clear-minded Christian--- the one who understands that ALL sin has been wiped out by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross--- guilt has no power or place in their thinking.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Although one cannot discount the occasional sociopath, the Christian (whether he consciously ascends to the knowledge or not) has relinquished one system of thinking (good and evil) for another entirely different system of thinking (lives).

Under the good and evil system, guilt is a constant (think Operation Fig Leaf).
Many religious people still labor ...[text shortened]... the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross--- guilt has no power or place in their thinking.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'good and evil' vs. 'lives'?


Many religious people still labor under the good and evil system, despite their real or imagined entrance into the Christian faith.
For the clear-minded Christian--- the one who understands that ALL sin has been wiped out by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross--- guilt has no power or place in their thinking.
Can you frame this within the context of moral transgressions?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'good and evil' vs. 'lives'?


[b]Many religious people still labor under the good and evil system, despite their real or imagined entrance into the Christian faith.
For the clear-minded Christian--- the one who understands that ALL sin has been wiped out by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross--- guilt ...[text shortened]... place in their thinking.
Can you frame this within the context of moral transgressions?[/b]

God created us with the intention of never knowing shame or guilt.
In the Garden, it was just Life--- no knowledge of good and evil.
The former is what lies ahead for believers: Lives.
The latter is the pluralistic world that cannot reach God.
It can know when things are good (relatively speaking) and it certainly knows evil, but it can never attain perfection.

The system we were plunged into "works" in the sense of keeping absolute chaos at bay... for the most part.

However, the work performed on the cross removes us from that failed world, and transforms us into what we ran from in the first place, back into a relationship with God based upon God's goodness: His own and what He imparts to us.

Paul speaks extensively on our freedoms in Christ.
The implications are truly shocking.

Astaganaga!

Another thread with the initial post posing a thinly-veiled, dubious, rhetorical, strawman "question," with the obvious aim to entice the in-crowd to submit their negative opinions of Christians. No surprise, the initial post was followed up by a combative non-Christian saying how obvious it is that Christians lie, cheat, do whatever they can to recruit members.

Of course, nary a mention of how lying, cheating, disinforming... are all explicitly NON-Christian practices and thus eliminate anyone deploying such tactics from being faithful Christians to begin with. "But Paul said...." no, he didn't. Anyone lying to convert others is acting completely against Christ's teachings and is obviously not behaving in a Christian manner, and thus should be eliminated from any sincere discussion about acceptable Chrisitan practices. Period.

I wonder what the backlash would be if a Christian posted a similar thread... starting things off with, "I've noticed that most Atheists I've run into are hostile, negative, arrogant, and dishonest. Christians? Have you experienced the same thing, and why do you think this is?"

*rolling eyes*

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
God created us with the intention of never knowing shame or guilt.
In the Garden, it was just Life--- no knowledge of good and evil.
The former is what lies ahead for believers: Lives.
The latter is the pluralistic world that cannot reach God.
It can know when things are good (relatively speaking) and it certainly knows evil, but it can never attain .

Paul speaks extensively on our freedoms in Christ.
The implications are truly shocking.

The reason I asked you to "frame [it] within the context of moral transgressions" is that you have not explictly stated just what it means to live outside of the "good and evil system" and that "ALL sin has been wiped out".

Following are a couple of possibilities.

Does it mean that moral transgressions are never committed? That those who live outside of the "good and evil system" are incapable of murder, rape, stealing, lying etc.?

Does it mean that moral transgressions are unimportant? That those who live outside of the "good and evil system" can murder, rape, steal, lie etc. with impunity?

Originally posted by FMF
Astaganaga!

Alhamdulilah

Originally posted by sumydid
Another thread with the initial post posing a thinly-veiled, dubious, rhetorical, strawman "question," with the obvious aim to entice the in-crowd to submit their negative opinions of Christians. No surprise, the initial post was followed up by a combative non-Christian saying how obvious it is that Christians lie, cheat, do whatever they can to recruit memb Have you experienced the same thing, and why do you think this is?"

*rolling eyes*

Another thread with the initial post posing a thinly-veiled, dubious, rhetorical, strawman "question," with the obvious aim to entice the in-crowd to submit their negative opinions of Christians. No surprise, the initial post was followed up by a combative non-Christian saying how obvious it is that Christians lie, cheat, do whatever they can to recruit members...

I wonder what the backlash would be if a Christian posted a similar thread... starting things off with, "I've noticed that most Atheists I've run into are hostile, negative, arrogant, and dishonest. Christians? Have you experienced the same thing, and why do you think this is?"

I wonder if you understand what constitutes a straw man. Do you understand that your post is a prime example of one? Do you understand that the OP is not a straw man?


Of course, nary a mention of how lying, cheating, disinforming... are all explicitly NON-Christian practices and thus eliminate anyone deploying such tactics from being faithful Christians to begin with.

You seem to be claiming that true Christians NEVER lie, cheat, etc. (with presumably any and all other "sins" included). If so, you are the first Christian that I have come across who has this belief.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The reason I asked you to "frame [it] within the context of moral transgressions" is that you have not explictly stated just what it means to live outside of the "good and evil system" and that "ALL sin has been wiped out".

Following are a couple of possibilities.

Does it mean that moral transgressions are never committed? That those who live outsid ...[text shortened]... outside of the "good and evil system" can murder, rape, steal, lie etc. with impunity?

I'll attempt greater concision this time around.

The professional code of the believer is infinitely higher than morality, although it contains morality within its group.
Its standard of conduct is so much higher than morality, however, that it confuses the uninformed: how can anything not submit to moral thinking and behavior?
Submission infers suicide when God offers us a change of existence.
Submission demands constriction of action when God offers baptism.

Believers are just as capable of morally repulsive behavior as unbelievers.
However, they are less likely to commit anything perceived as such when they are following their marching orders, i.e., growing in the knowledge and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
One so consumed has no taste for the bad meat anymore--- although those off the path are likely to turn to behavior even more shocking than your run-of-the-mill offenses.

Believers are equipped to never sin again.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I'll attempt greater concision this time around.

The professional code of the believer is infinitely higher than morality, although it contains morality within its group.
Its standard of conduct is so much higher than morality, however, that it confuses the uninformed: how can anything not submit to moral thinking and behavior?
Submission infers sui ...[text shortened]... more shocking than your run-of-the-mill offenses.

Believers are equipped to never sin again.

Either you have not given sufficient detail here or it would seem that what you have provided is inconsistent with the idea of living outside of the "good and evil system" and that "ALL sin has been wiped out".

For example, you speak of such things as believers being "less likely to commit anything perceived as such when they are following their marching orders", believers that are "off the path [being] likely to turn to behavior even more shocking than your run-of-the-mill offenses" and "believers [being] equipped to never sin again" seem contrary to those ideas. The only way I see to reconcile this, is if you meant that those ideas only apply to Christain who indeed "never sin again" and not Christians in general. As such they would be "freed from guilt and shame" simply because they no longer commit acts that would warrant it. Seems that this would apply to non-Christians as well.

Originally posted by sumydid
Another thread with the initial post posing a thinly-veiled, dubious, rhetorical, strawman "question," with the obvious aim to entice the in-crowd to submit their negative opinions of Christians. No surprise, the initial post was followed up by a combative non-Christian saying how obvious it is that Christians lie, cheat, do whatever they can to recruit memb Have you experienced the same thing, and why do you think this is?"

*rolling eyes*

In my earlier response, I should have explicitly pointed out how you used deceit (a straw man) in in your haste to try to find something disparaging to say about the OP. Evidently this eliminates you "from being [a] faithful Christian to begin with". You're really something.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Over the years I've known a number of Christians who seemed to be without conscience beyond perhaps displaying outward signs of contrition.

Perhaps the following from a post on another thread sheds light on why this may be the case:
[quote]God's grace and mercy cleans us of all our sins, we are free from the guilt and shame we have over the things we ...[text shortened]... role that conscience should take.

How common is this belief common amongst Christians?

A tyrant who bullies you into feeling guilty and shameful, then does some extraordinary play-acting so you can escape those feelings. You'd have to conclude God was off God's rocker.

Coincidentia oppositorum is as close as I've ever got to accepting the validity of God as a concept.

Personally, guilt and shame are guides to escaping bad situations. The small inner voice that helps in such contexts could, I guess, be likened to the Logos and so Christianised.

Anyway: your OP brings to mind hysterical human beings who 'sin' (because they are human) and then indulge in a sort of neurotic orgy of feelings of 'guilt and shame' usually in a ritualised context (church, but also just in highly charged Christian company) in which they 'get off', discharge, get some kind of quasi-orgasmic release.