Gen 3:15??

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Why?

So there are parts of the Bible that mean nothing?

Originally posted by galveston75
Humans...

Good answer now that I think about it.

Well, the passage is meaningful to believers in Christ. The promised seed to crush the head of the serpent is the woman's seed Jesus.

It could be that the woman's seed hints at the virgin birth of the Son of God. It is not a man's seed mentioned there. However, someone pointed out to me that a few other places in the Bible refer to a woman's seed in a sense.

Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil. And He destroyed him who has the might of death, the Devil.

But this destruction works its way subjectively from within the Christian, without. So the effectiveness of what Jesus has done on the cross to crush the head of the serpent, is applicable first to believers.

Unbeleivers still in thier sins really see no applicability to this victory, until they get saved and begin to walk by the Spirit of Christ.

Of course eventually that little serpent will go to the lake of fire. Satan in an objective sense, will be totally dispensed of in the eternal perdition.

So the prophecy, I think, is most meaningful to believers in the woman's seed, the Son of God, firstly.

Originally posted by jaywill
Good answer now that I think about it.

Well, the passage is meaningful to believers in Christ. The promised seed to crush the head of the serpent is the woman's seed Jesus.

It could be that the woman's seed hints at the virgin birth of the Son of God. It is not a man's seed mentioned there. However, someone pointed out to me that a few other places i ...[text shortened]... ecy, I think, is most meaningful to believers in the woman's seed, the Son of God, firstly.

Could this be the same woman spoken of in isiah 54: 1,5,13 and Rev 12: 1,2?

"And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."

How about keeping it simple? God will put hostility between the serpent and the woman as well as all the future offspring of the serpent and all the future offspring of the woman. The hostility will be such that man will strike at the heads of snakes and snakes will strike at the heels of man.

It provides an explanation of why man has such a deep-rooted instinctual hostility toward snakes and presumably vice versa.

This would be consistent with the preceding and following verses that provide explanation for some of the other "whys and wherefores" of man and snakes.

A lot of times it seems you guys put to much effort into trying to assign "hidden" meaning into verses. The problem with doing that is that it's reasonably easy to assign just about any meaning you like. Then you run around claiming that you found some "proof" for one thing or another when all you did is "find" what you were looking to find in the first place.

Originally posted by galveston75
Could this be the same woman spoken of in isiah 54: 1,5,13 and Rev 12: 1,2?

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the entire body of God's redeemed people through all ages.

The moon under her feet signify the saints of the age of the law.
The crown of 12 stars on her head signify the partriarchs before the age of the law.
The major part of her body clothed with the sun signifies the new testament saints of the age of grace.

The sun, the moon, the stars all being sources of light mean that she is the totality of God's light on the earth. The vision should be compared to that of Joseph. In Joseph's dream his mother, his father, and his brothers were also the sources of heavenly light meaning that they were the chosen people of God on earth at that time.

The moon's is a reflection of the sun's light. The law of God is something of a reflection of Christ.

The moon is under her feet. This means the law of Moses is subject to the people of grace in the new covenant. She is not treading on the law in a disrespectful way. But she has the law under her as she walks in grace.

The sun is not a reflection but is a light source in itself. This represents Christ the Son of God. And He clothes the major part of the woman's body.

The twelve stars are exalted upon her head. Though the law of Moses is under subjection to the people of grace, the patriarchs before the law like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Joseph, are exalted as heroes of faith before the age of the law. So they form a crown on her head.

All three major ages are represented in the moon, the sun, and the stars. So she is representative of all past ages of God's people on the earth.

She is not just the church. She is not just Israel. She is not Mary. She is the total body of God's saints in times past.

We may call this woman "the universal bright woman". And her obvious reminiscence to Eve in Genesis cannot be ignored. In principle God's people of all ages have been in travail and prayer to bring forth a stronger manchild to defeat the enemy of God for the sake of the majority of saints.

I can only speak briefly here. I will look into the Isaiah reference. But if there is something you wish to say about "the universal bright woman" of Revelation 12 please write it.

Think of her as the corporate and enlarged Eve symbolizing the totality of God's saints on the earth in all ages of human history.

Originally posted by jaywill
The woman in Revelation 12 represents the entire body of God's redeemed people through all ages.

The moon under her feet signify the saints of the age of the law.
The crown of 12 stars on her head signify the partriarchs before the age of the law.
The major part of her body clothed with the sun signifies the new testament saints of the age of g ymbolizing the totality of God's saints on the earth in all ages of human history.

Sorry jaywill, but I think you've really gone off the deep end on these posts. Read my post just preceding yours. Isn't it much more sensible?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sorry jaywill, but I think you've really gone off the deep end on these posts. Read my post just preceding yours. Isn't it much more sensible?

sorry i am sick of fighting, post retracted!

Jaywill seems not far from my own understanding, at least with regard to the women having a greater prophetic significance , well done Jaywill, we agree on something at last!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sorry jaywill, but I think you've really gone off the deep end on these posts. Read my post just preceding yours. Isn't it much more sensible?

ToO,

I don't think we were expounding on exactly the same thing. Of course Revelation 12 is related to Genesis 3 for many of us.

If that is all you see there, I would not be energetic to declare you "wrong". It is to many of us just superficial view.

If you have no interest in looking deeper into Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 I don't want to debate about it. You just have no need to see anything deeper.

As for what I wrote about Revelation 12, it is based upon letting the Bible interpret itself. What I did not do was supply the supporting biblical evidence which leads me to think this interpretation is a very good one. I did not just pull things out of nowhere.

If you are interesting in hearing me defend the reliability of what I wrote, I am not worried about it. I can. I don't however, want to force convince you to appreciate something deeper there if you don't want it.

Talking about Revelation 12, we who interpret the vision as I did have good reasons to say.

1.) The Woman should not stand for Mary.

2.) The Woman should not stand ONLY for Israel.

3.) The Woman should not stand ONLY for the new testament church.

4.) The Woman should not merely stand for Eve though she certainly is reminiscient of Eve.

5.) The Woman should represent all the saints on earth from the age before the law, the age of the law, the age of grace.

The truths shown to John were to be revealed "by signs" (Rev. 1:1). So that we who are serious about understanding Revelation should be willing to labor in prayer and research to ascertain what the "signs" might be symbols of. That is perfectly reasonable.

Lastly, simplicity is good. But frankly, not everything in the Bible is always simple. I feel confident in my position. You don't have to accept it.

The thing which strongly connects Revelation 12's vision of the universal bright women with the prophesy of Genesis 3 is:

1.) The obvious simalarities.

2,) The explicit reference in Revelation 12:9 that the dragon is Satan the "ancient serpent".

"And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth ..."

The most obtuse reader of both Genesis and Revelation should get a hint that the Bible is drawing a connection between the two passages.

Originally posted by jaywill
The thing which strongly connects Revelation 12's vision of the universal bright women with the prophesy of Genesis 3 is:

1.) The obvious simalarities.

2,) The explicit reference in Revelation 12:9 that the dragon is Satan the "ancient serpent".

"And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Dev velation should get a hint that the Bible is drawing a connection between the two passages.

or the original serpent.

It's all the same.

To jaywill (et al)

You spend a lot of time expounding on the Woman.

IMHO the Woman is pretty well explained in both escatology and apologetics. And basically I agree with your broad view.

However, what struck me this time is the phrase: "the serpents offspring".

If the serpent is representative of Satan (who, in some prophetic interpretations bruises the heel of the Woman's seed, being Christ, at the cross) then who is the seed of Satan? Do demons breed?

Please, this is not provocative or argumentative! I'd really like to hear your point of view (and/or that of some of the other Christians on this site!)

Originally posted by CalJust
To jaywill (et al)

You spend a lot of time expounding on the Woman.

IMHO the Woman is pretty well explained in both escatology and apologetics. And basically I agree with your broad view.

However, what struck me this time is the phrase: "the serpents offspring".

If the serpent is representative of Satan (who, in some prophetic interpretations bru like to hear your point of view (and/or that of some of the other Christians on this site!)

Caljust,

Please forgive me if my spirit comes out argumentative or grumpy when it should not. I seriously do not mind a honest disagreement or request to further substantiat some view of Scripture. I deeply repect such requests in a right attitude.


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However, what struck me this time is the phrase: "the serpents offspring".
================================

You must be refering to Genesis 3:15:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel."

The serpent's seed are the people who follow Satan. Because Satan, the old serpent (Rev.12:9; 20:2), has injected himself as sin into man's flesh. (For this we would need a discussion of Romans chapter 7). This is only a brief comment.

In the eyes of God all men have become serpents:

"Serpents! Brood of vipers! How shall you escape the judgment of Gehenna?" (Matthew 23:33)

I think that the symbolisim of Numbers 21:4-9 when the Israelites were bitten by poisoness serpents and all had to look upon the brass serpent lifted on the pole, indicates that in God's eyes all mankind is poisoned by Satan making them his followers and his offspring. (Compare Numbers 21:4-9 with John 3:14-21)

Anyway, fallen men as Satan's followers, are his sons, his seed, not by adoption but by birth:

"But when he [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadduces coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of vipers, who prompted you to flee from the coming wrath? (Matt. 3:7)

"And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one ..." (Matt. 13:38)

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father ..." (John 8:44)

"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest." (1 John 3:10)

These phrases, "offspring of vipers," "sons of the evil one," "children of the devil," "your father the devil" all indicate this Satanic, or if you will "serpentine" nature and life has embedded itself in fallen mankind. These people are used to persecute and fight against the woman's seed.

So we need to be born again, regenerated, (not just adopted) by Jesus Christ to become children of God. And we need to live by the new nature and have the old crucified with Christ through faith.

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If the serpent is representative of Satan (who, in some prophetic interpretations bruises the heel of the Woman's seed, being Christ, at the cross) then who is the seed of Satan? Do demons breed?
====================================

It is a good question. And after I write something I would like to study the matter further. But I want to say something limited now. I hope I will not make any error.

In my limited understanding, the seed of the Woman is said to crush the HEAD of the serpent - "He will bruise you on the head".

Of course all the demons and the evil angels (they are not the same) will be crushed by Christ as well. The opposing armies of the Antichrist in the end will be crushed by Christ as well. All His enemies will eventually either surrender unconditionally or be crushed.

But I think that the crushing of the head of the serpent probably mainly refers to His destroying Satan, the arch leader of the whole evil opposition party.

In a separate post I would like to write more about this. I have to consult the footnotes and study notes of the Recovery Version of the Bible. And I highly recommend it to you.

www.recoverversion.org

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Please, this is not provocative or argumentative! I'd really like to hear your point of view (and/or that of some of the other Christians on this site!)
==============================

I'm trying. You should examine the matters like the Bereans. I think you have a great attitude here.

This is brief and I'd like to write more below.

The seed of the woman is the incarnated Jesus Christ, who as the very God was born of the virgin Mary to be a man, as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 and fulfilled in Matthew 1:23. It was further confirmed in Galatians 4:4).

The promise of God in Genesis 3:15 indicates that God Himself would come to be a human seed to bruise the head of the damaging serpent.

Now ultimately this seed of the woman is enlarged to include the overcoming believers, the stronger part of the unversal bright woman in Revelation 12. That is the weaker vessel, the woman, has a manchild (stronger part) born from her. The manchild in Revelation 12:5 is a collective. The manchild is a corporate group of overcoming and victorious believers. Because they are in union with Christ and possess the life of Christ they are the collective Christ.

Before anyone objects to the phrase of an overcoming collective Christ please consider Romans 16:20

"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord jesus be with you."

This word is to the church in Rome. The overcoming saints, who experience grace, who enjoy being "more than conquerors" and who "reign in life", at the beginning of the last few years of this age, will co-participate in the crushing of Satan under their collective feet.

So briefly, we have to see, aside from REDEMPTION, which only Jesus could accomplish, His normal, up to the standard, overcoming, stronger part of the entire church, as a remnant participate in this defeating of Satan. This is why being a disciple of Jesus is so magnificent and momentous. Christ will not do everything alone. He will secure at least a remnant of normal overcomers who co-participate in His victory.

The manchild in Revelation 12, as the stronger part within and from the woman, signifies this overcoming army. This is not an exhaustive explanation. This is brief and runs the risk of problems. But the essence of what I am saying is that Christ AND His overcomers are the entity which will defeat Satan and rid this earth of him.

We can take part ! We can take part by being "organically" joined to Christ and become overcoming in the enjoyment of Him as grace.

Concerning the manchild Revelation says "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night,

And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rec. 12:10,11)

Please notice the words "THEY," "THEIR," "THEY" (again), The voice is speaking about "the manchild". So we know that the manchild is a CORPORATE entity, a collective. Do you see it ?

Who ELSE in the passage could the voice be refering to ? It could not be a reference to the good angels. The angels do not overcome "because of the blood of the Lamb". They are sinless. They are not considered "brothers" (v.10) .

The universal bright woman is all of God's people. The manchild within her is the stronger part of her who is raptured to the throne of God. Over these Satan no longer has any accusation. They have used the blood of Jesus to totally shut his accusing mouth.

Not only so. They have overcome Satan by proclaiming the FACTS of the word of God - "the word of their testimony". Not only this, they have also not loved their soul-life even unto death.

1.) This means that they have DIED and are being resurrected and raptured.

2.) This means that they denied themselves to the uttermost to live Christ and enjoy the grace of Christ.

(They will come from both the Old Testament age and the New Testaent Age though. For both ages had overcomers.) And this needs some more attention by me.

The jist of the matter is that BASED on Christ's victory some normal overcoming remnant of believers co-participate in His victory. And God will use them to bring in His kingdom to the earth.

That is why when the manchild is raptured you have this exaltant praise - "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ ....".

Rapture of this manchild is a STRATEGIC move in the spiritual warfare. It is used by God to DRIVE Satan out of the heavenlies to be limited to only move on the face of the earth.

Of course the rapture of the manchild necessarily means the final descent of Satan and the commencement of the great tribulation. This is proved by verse 12:

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time."

ALL HELL will break loose on the planet after the manchild is resurrected and raptured. The rapture of the stronger manchild from the total body of God's redeemed is a strategic move and the very trigger which causes the final great tribulation to commence.

Above I share that the manchild in Revelation is a collectrive unit. He is a remnant. He is a minority used by God in the spiritual warfare.

I would ask the reader to review the story of Gideon's little army of 300 (Judges 7:16) in Judges 6:1 - 8:32.

Gideon's little army (little compared to the whole nation) is a type of the remnant of overcomers who accomplish a great victory on behalf of the rest of the entire body of God's people.

The manchild is such a remnant. The manchild is such a minority. The Woman as her mother represents the weaker part of the majority of God's people. The manchild born from her represents the stronger part, a minority and remnant.

Now when Satan is driven down by the rapture of the manchild, he comes to the earth in "great rage". Immediately afterwards in chapter 13 we see the rise of the final Antichrist and his false prophet.

But it is important to see that the manchild's victory is absolutely based on Christ's victory. The manchild overcomes Satan because Christ as the God-man overcame Satan.

So you see it is really not simple. The unique Godman Jesus Christ crushed the head of the serpent. And the manchild who overcome through His blood, through His word, and because they love Him more than their own soul-life, overcome to be raptured above the enemy. This drives him down to make a final last ditch stand against Christ and His kingdom on this planet. But He will be defeated and his Antichrist and false prophet will be defeated and go into eternal perdition before he does.

Now, I have indicated that the manchild is the overcomers who have died and resurrected to be raptured. That they loved not their soul-life unto death means to me that they had indeed died.

The astute Bible student may ask "What about the living overcomers? Are only the dead ones from the past ages raptured?"

The LIVING overcomers are not in chapter 12. The living overcomers are in chapter 14 as the 144,000 Firstfruits.

They are also signified in chapter 3:10 and a few other places it is hinted that some LIVING at that time, will also be raptured.