1. Standard memberknightmeister
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    29 May '08 20:371 edit
    If God could foresee the holocaust was going to happen then that would mean that the holocaust must have actually happened in the "future". If it has not happened in some future time then how can it be "foreseen" ? How is it possible to foresee a future that doesn't actually exist in reality? You tell me.

    Can even God foresee a future that doesn't really happen? Doesn't foreseeing the future require that said future exists? Otherwise (if Hitler had free will) it would be impossible for God to completely foresee Hitler's actions because they were inherently unpredictable and at least partly free of pre-deterministic forces. The only way he could possibly have perfect foreknowledge of the holocaust would be if the holocaust actually took place in some future time. BUT...if the holocaust takes place in 1939-45 how can God make it "un-take place" because it's already happened.

    You see the problem here is you either see God as

    1) looking into a real and actual future

    Or

    2) being a master bookmaker will incredible predictive abilities

    If you choose 1) then God must by definition be looking into a future that exists and that future would be unpreventable because it would have to happen in order to be the "future".

    If you choose 2) then you are accepting that God is trying to "predict" (as opposed to foresee) and if he is the great predictor then he can only be perfect at this if the universe is entirely deterministic . Once free will is introduced then that's a whole new ball game and even God is unable to predict.

    The problem becomes even more difficult if you consider that if God is utterly infallible in his foreseeing of a real and actual future then there's no way he can stop it from happening. Why? Because the only way he can change the future is if it is not set in stone and he has made some kind of mistake. If he perfectly foresees the holocaust then it's too late at that point to stop it. If he predicts it perfectly then free will cannot exist because the only way things can be perfectly predicted is if they are governed by totally perfect deterministic forces , which free will is not by definition.

    My overall point is that it's illogical and incoherent to suggest that God can prevent a future he has perfectly foreseen. It's also illogical to suggest that free actions can be perfectly predicted. This inevitably leads us to wonder how God actually knows the future . The answer is that for him it's not the "future" nor a prediction . He neither foresees NOR predicts.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    29 May '08 20:401 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If God could foresee the holocaust was going to happen then that would mean that the holocaust must have actually happened in the "future". If it has not happened in some future time then how can it be "foreseen" ? How is it possible to foresee a future that doesn't actually exist in reality? You tell me.

    Can even God foresee a future that doesn't m it's not the "future" nor a prediction . He neither foresees NOR predic
    Congratulations!!! You've now started a thousand threads arguing the same, ridiculous point.
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    29 May '08 21:01
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Congratulations!!! You've now started a thousand threads arguing the same, ridiculous point.
    Is it really ONLY one thousand? I thought it was a much higher number.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
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    29 May '08 21:09
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Congratulations!!! You've now started a thousand threads arguing the same, ridiculous point.
    It's such a shame that you can't see the subtle differences and various perspectives in all the threads. This particular one for example looks at how it might be possible/impossible for a "foreseeing" God to prevent a future that has been perfectly forseen.

    This is a perfectly valid point to make and I'm sure others who don't have your unthinking kneejerk reaction to everything you disagree with will find it quite an interesting point. It may be that it's already been thought of , if so why did you not say?

    Next time I will try and post something more bland and simplistic for you? If I had your address I would just send you a strap of leather to knaw on. LOL
  5. Cape Town
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    30 May '08 06:49
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    It's such a shame that you can't see the subtle differences and various perspectives in all the threads.
    But they are different perspectives on the same ridiculous point.

    This particular one for example looks at how it might be possible/impossible for a "foreseeing" God to prevent a future that has been perfectly forseen.
    In other words God is incapable of interfering in the universe. You really should think your points through.
  6. Donationbbarr
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    30 May '08 07:00
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If God could foresee the holocaust was going to happen then that would mean that the holocaust must have actually happened in the "future". If it has not happened in some future time then how can it be "foreseen" ? How is it possible to foresee a future that doesn't actually exist in reality? You tell me.

    Can even God foresee a future that doesn't ...[text shortened]... t's not the "future" nor a prediction . He neither foresees NOR predicts.
    All that follows from the assumption that your incoherent libertarian view of freedom is true is that God cannot perfectly predict the future. It is compatible with libertarian freedom that God can predict with exceptional but fallible accuracy what will occur. Right now I know with an exceptionally high degree of certainty that all my students will arrive clothed to class tomorrow. This despite the assumption that they are are possessed of libertarian freedom, and thus could freely choose to arrive to class naked. So, there is no reason to think that God could not have predicted the Holocaust, even if those responsible could have individually freely chosen to do otherwise.
  7. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    30 May '08 07:02
    Originally posted by bbarr
    All that follows from the assumption that your incoherent libertarian view of freedom is true is that God cannot perfectly predict the future. It is compatible with libertarian freedom that God can predict with exceptional but fallible accuracy what will occur. Right now I know with an exceptionally high degree of certainty that all my students will a ...[text shortened]... the Holocaust, even if those responsible could have individually freely chosen to do otherwise.
    Satan, still sore at the defeat he suffered in the Job incident, decided to up the ante.
  8. Donationbbarr
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    30 May '08 07:11
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Satan, still sore at the defeat he suffered in the Job incident, decided to up the ante.
    Well, he won this round. My Polish grandparents (one a Jew, the other Catholic) both became atheists after the Holocaust.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    30 May '08 07:29
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    But they are different perspectives on the same ridiculous point.

    [b]This particular one for example looks at how it might be possible/impossible for a "foreseeing" God to prevent a future that has been perfectly forseen.

    In other words God is incapable of interfering in the universe. You really should think your points through.[/b]
    "In other words God is incapable of interfering in the universe. You really should think your points through." --WHITEY

    But of course you know that I don't believe that God does "foresee" the future in the way you imagine he does. God can still interfere in the universe in many ways to try to influence outcomes and further his plans in the same way as we can also interfere with the universe. However , once the future is perfectly foreseen then by definition it must have already "happened" in the said future time.

    God does not foresee things "in advance" because the way he knows the future is as it is happening. In one sense even God has to "wait" for it to happen before it can become the "future".

    The holocaust for example either happens in some future time (it's now past for us) or it doesn't. If it is an event that occurs in the future then it is unpreventable. This would not stop God from pre-destining certain futures to happen , but if he introduces real freedom to choose into the universe then he makes himself partially blind to outcomes because outcomes are no longer 100% predictable.

    BTW- I don't understand why you think I should "think my posts through" . I am simply following a line of reasoning. If you are suggesting that I should not follow a line of reasoning because it might create problems for my belief system then I think I had best leave such self deceptive sophistry to you.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
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    30 May '08 07:35
    Originally posted by bbarr
    All that follows from the assumption that your incoherent libertarian view of freedom is true is that God cannot perfectly predict the future. It is compatible with libertarian freedom that God can predict with exceptional but fallible accuracy what will occur. Right now I know with an exceptionally high degree of certainty that all my students will a ...[text shortened]... the Holocaust, even if those responsible could have individually freely chosen to do otherwise.
    Of course God could have and did predict that all sorts of evil and sin would take place in a universe where he gave mankind free will. The Bible says that Christ was slain for the foundation of the world which suggests that God was alredy making provision for sin and evil from the beginning. Of course God could have decided to call the whole show off and just create a dead mindless universe with no sentience , and no real moral choices , and no capacity for anything to go wrong , and no possibility of humans choosing against him. Apparently he thought it was worth the risk to bring free will into the universe.....
  11. Cape Town
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    30 May '08 08:06
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    BTW- I don't understand why you think I should "think my posts through" . I am simply following a line of reasoning. If you are suggesting that I should not follow a line of reasoning because it might create problems for my belief system then I think I had best leave such self deceptive sophistry to you.
    I am not saying you shouldn't follow lines of reasoning nor am I telling you not to post your thoughts here. I simply think it is painfully obvious that your reasoning in this case it fundamentally flawed in so many different ways. I just find it hard to explain it to you when you cant seem to see the obvious, and seem quite comfortable with holding irrational, incoherent concepts.
    Lets suppose:
    1. God knows the whole of human history (omniscient).
    2. God causes an event A in the universe.
    Prior to him causing A, history would have been different, but since that is not what happened God might not know what effects A will have. In fact you tell us the only reason he knows what effects A will have is because he sees it as the past. So he cannot plan A based on known effect. A was a shot in the dark. He cannot use A to prophesy. His supposed omniscience is irrelevant and useless to him. Before he does A he is not omniscient. If he does in fact know he will do A before he does A then he has no free will himself.

    As you might have noticed it just descends into a nonsensical time paradox.
  12. Cape Town
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    30 May '08 08:07
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Of course God could have decided to call the whole show off and just create a dead mindless universe with no sentience , and no real moral choices , and no capacity for anything to go wrong , and no possibility of humans choosing against him.
    Sounds like heaven is not all its made out to be.
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    30 May '08 08:14
    Originally posted by twhitehead

    1. God knows the whole of human history (omniscient).
    Is omniscience a possible concept? My intuition is that it is not. I'm hoping to confirm or disprove it by reading this:
    http://www.sunysb.edu/philosophy/faculty/pgrim/exchange.txt
  14. Cape Town
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    30 May '08 08:40
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Is omniscience a possible concept? My intuition is that it is not. I'm hoping to confirm or disprove it by reading this:
    http://www.sunysb.edu/philosophy/faculty/pgrim/exchange.txt
    I see no problem with knowing all the past (as knightmeister claims God knows it), but to simultaneously interact with the past is incoherent.
    One could think of the Universe as a memory of the universe. Surely that fits in nicely with your philosophy?
  15. Donationbbarr
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    30 May '08 08:42
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Of course God could have and did predict that all sorts of evil and sin would take place in a universe where he gave mankind free will. The Bible says that Christ was slain for the foundation of the world which suggests that God was alredy making provision for sin and evil from the beginning. Of course God could have decided to call the whole show of ...[text shortened]... ainst him. Apparently he thought it was worth the risk to bring free will into the universe.....
    Yes, but how is any of this relevant? Free will is not undermined by periodic interference. That a rapist freely chooses to rape is no reason for me not to intervene, and it does not prevent the freedom of the rapist's will in any case.
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