04 Sep 08
When a man chooses to be compassionate , what is actually happening? In spiritual/Christian terms he is being moved by the Spirit to love his brother.
For sure he is "choosing" to be compassionate , but the power to be compassionate and the stirring of love within him is also an action of the Spirit.
Similarly , if a man starts to pray what is happening. Is he praying independently ? No , he is being prompted by the Spirit to pray , and the Spirit is helping him and giving him the words. The man is participating in a process of grace.
When a man stands firm in the face of evil against injustice is his courage and sense of wrong his own or is God there strengthening him? Of course he is.
Jesus said (as an example) "do not worry about what you will say for I will give you the words". So to witness to the truth is Spirit inspired too. So to is revelation of the truth ("when he the spirit comes he will guide you into all truth" + " this has been revealled to you by my Father"😉
I put it to ToO that grace is integral to everything we do that is good and righteous.
04 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterHow about leaving ToO out of your posts?
When a man chooses to be compassionate , what is actually happening? In spiritual/Christian terms he is being moved by the Spirit to love his brother.
For sure he is "choosing" to be compassionate , but the power to be compassionate and the stirring of love within him is also an action of the Spirit.
Similarly , if a man starts to pray what is ...[text shortened]...
I put it to ToO that grace is integral to everything we do that is good and righteous.
04 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo, when a person “chooses” to do good it is not on her own recognizance, but only as she is divinely moved to do so—but when a person chooses to do evil, only that is a real choice on her part?
When a man chooses to be compassionate , what is actually happening? In spiritual/Christian terms he is being moved by the Spirit to love his brother.
For sure he is "choosing" to be compassionate , but the power to be compassionate and the stirring of love within him is also an action of the Spirit.
Similarly , if a man starts to pray what is ...[text shortened]...
I put it to ToO that grace is integral to everything we do that is good and righteous.
I mean, either the “__” belong around the word choose in both places or neither, surely. Otherwise you are really saying that I only think that I am choosing the good in every such case, but I actually am choosing the evil in every such case.
And that would mean that evil actions only happen when God chooses not to move a person definitively toward the good. And it would mean that no one can answer the call to repentance, for example; they are simply moved to repentance, and others are not.
Now, the only way that one can get any kind of theodicy out of that (if one can reasonable be got at all) is on the basis that human nature is utterly and totally depraved, and that God chooses to move some to (a) good, and (b) salvation, for no discernable reason. And I recognize that that is the theological view of some, but—
For one to say that “God is just”, for example, under such conditions, is to say nothing more meaningful than God is dillywirt, since we have absolutely no comprehension of what being “just” might mean to such a God. Such “pure grace” can only be discerned by us as randomness, and no one ought to be confused by any other talk about the reasons or attributes of God (or about “faith” and “works”, for that matter). All such God-talk is rendered meaningless, whatever its source.
I don’t think that’s what you intend here, KM.
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(1) God either saves or does not save for some reason(s)—or else God’s salvific action is random.
(2) God’s reasons either have something to do with us—our decisions, thoughts, beliefs, behavior—or they do not. In the latter case, all such things on our part are simply irrelevant.
(3) If God’s reasons have anything to do with us, then we are either aware of them (and are capable of understanding them)—or we are not. In the latter case, there is simply nothing to be said about it, except—
(1)’ God either saves or does not save...
04 Sep 08
1 edit
Originally posted by vistesdSo, when a person “chooses” to do good it is not on her own recognizance, but only as she is divinely moved to do so—but when a person chooses to do evil, only that is a real choice on her part?
So, when a person “chooses” to do good it is not on her own recognizance, but only as she is divinely moved to do so—but when a person chooses to do evil, only that is a real choice on her part?
I mean, either the “__” belong around the word choose in both places or neither, surely. Otherwise you are really saying that I only think that I am choo ...[text shortened]... ere is simply nothing to be said about it, except—
(1)’ God either saves or does not save...
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Suffice it to say that you have just about misunderstood me as much as you possibly could have.
When a person chooses to do good it is still a virtue on their part and still a choice. But it is a choice to surrender to goodness(God) , it is a letting go to grace (as it were). It is a real choice and God credits us with that choice but it is a choice to allow goodness and love to flow through us in the knowledge that we are not the ultimate source of goodness.
Evil choices are different . They involve holding on and staying independent (pride). Sin and pride place us at the centre of things , it is the opposite of surrender. God has allowed that we can allow our souls to be fuelled by pride if we so choose.
I do not consider human nature as depraved at all. I think we are wonderfully and beautifully made through Christ , but equally our beauty and goodness flows from God.
In short , I think we can make choices for goodness but that we are constantly being prompted towards goodness by God's grace.
However , the irony is that as long as we think the goodness is ours and emanates from us then we lose it , but if we recognise that our goodness is actually a gift from God to us then we can keep it.
Try thinking about it this way. If the idea that all your goodness and love really belongs to God and is his gift to you sits uncomfortably with you then is it not your pride that is being made to feel uncomfortable?
04 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWell, you haven't stopped distorting and lying about my position no matter how many times I've corrected you or asked you to stop. Why should this be any different? Now I can understand someone's not understanding my position and my having to clarify it. But with you, it seems no matter how many times I correct you or ask you to stop, you insist on persisting. But then, in your belief system, it seems you aren't responsible for this behaviour because God has yet to give you a sense of common decency.
How about actually addressing the issue at hand?
04 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterSuffice it to say that you have just about misunderstood me as much as you possibly could have.
So, when a person “chooses” to do good it is not on her own recognizance, but only as she is divinely moved to do so—but when a person chooses to do evil, only that is a real choice on her part?
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Suffice it to say that you have just about misunderstood me as much as you possibly could have.
When a person cho ...[text shortened]... sits uncomfortably with you then is it not your pride that is being made to feel uncomfortable?
Thought I might have; why I said I didn’t think you intended it that way.
If the idea that all your goodness and love really belongs to God and is his gift to you sits uncomfortably with you then is it not your pride that is being made to feel uncomfortable?
Or, think of it this way, suppose my good choices just flow from my nature—the tendencies with which I happen to have been born? Why would I take pride in that, or be uncomfortable with it—either one? I mean, that argument can be made in terms of any natural predilections one might have just as well as in terms of God.
Or—if then fact that you have committed some sins in your life sits uncomfortably with you, then is it not your pride that is being made to feel uncomfortable? [I’m not suggesting this is the case: only pointing out that what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.]
Don’t confuse your premises with the arguments that might reasonably flow from them. Three of your premises are (simplistically put):
(1) God;
(2) God is gracious;
(3) Whatever is good in our lives derives directly from (2).
Now, (3) may be correct, but so far, those are premises in need of an argument to weave them into a valid conclusion. None of those premises leads to the conclusion: “And if you’re uncomfortable with that, it must be pride”. That, of course, could be offered as an additional premise.
04 Sep 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI hear you concerns but this issue is FAR too important to be deflected on......
Well, you haven't stopped distorting and lying about my position no matter how many times I've corrected you or asked you to stop. Why should this be any different? Now I can understand someone's not understanding my position and my having to clarify it. But with you, it seems no matter how many times I correct you or ask you to stop, you insist on persis ...[text shortened]... 't responsible for this behaviour because God has yet to give you a sense of common decency.
Do you think your goodness and righteousness emanates from you and YOU are the source of it?
You have no goodness/ righteousness of your "own" , it is all given to you by God anyway. Just as your entire life is a gift of grace from him to you. It only becomes yours when you realise it was God's all along. How much more should his salvation be a gift of grace also , enabling you to live a life of truth and love?
Self righteousness is the great subtle delusion of pride because it cuts you off from realising the source of righteousness.
Any attempt to live a good life free of sin is doomed without the active grace of God to support such efforts. Do you think you can do it by "trying" harder , without the aid of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised?
You cannot even love others unless God puts that love into you and helps you to love. Sure , you can choose to let go to love , but you cannot become the very source of all love , you can only let that love flow through you and work along with it. You are a channel for God's love and grace and the choices you make are to allow that channelling or to resist it. That's the challenge of faith and that's where the real effort needs to go. But you can only start from a recognition of your reliance on God and gra ce. That's why the grace/salvation position is right.
Do you not see this fundamental truth?