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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member xs
    Incroyant
    02 Mar '05 19:41
    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
  2. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    02 Mar '05 19:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by xs
    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
    First of all, are you a Jew currently living in Israel? If not, you have nothing to worry about...well, except law enforcement finding out you possess slaves.
  3. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    02 Mar '05 20:26
    Originally posted by xs
    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
    In the Bible, the term nations is meant in the racial, rather than the political sense. Presumably, your friend believes you share more racial affiliation with Canadians than with Mexicans.

    Ignore Darfius's answer, as he has forgotten that the United States is Israel.
  4. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    02 Mar '05 20:32
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    In the Bible, the term nations is meant in the racial, rather than the political sense. Presumably, your friend believes you share more racial affiliation with Canadians than with Mexicans.

    Ignore Darfius's answer, as he has forgotten that the United States is Israel.
    He's right, it doesn't matter where you live. What matters is that you're an Orthodox Jew who is engaged in war. Remember to release your slave after 6 years of service and to treat him fairly.
  5. Standard member Nemesio
    Ursulakantor
    02 Mar '05 20:40
    Originally posted by Darfius
    First of all, are you a Jew currently living in Israel? If not, you have nothing to worry about...well, except law enforcement finding out you possess slaves.
    Are you saying that Jews living in Israel can posses slaves?
    That is, there is no moral problem with the possesion of slaves
    as long as you are Jewish and live Israel?

    Nemesio
  6. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    02 Mar '05 20:42
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Are you saying that Jews living in Israel can posses slaves?
    That is, there is no moral problem with the possesion of slaves
    as long as you are Jewish and live Israel?

    Nemesio
    Nope, I was mistaken. I ammended the mistake.
  7. Standard member Nemesio
    Ursulakantor
    02 Mar '05 20:49
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Nope, I was mistaken. I ammended the mistake.
    I'm sorry, but I want to be clear on your position.

    Is it permissible to own a slave? If so, under what
    conditions? If not, what about the passage cited by xs?

    Nemesio
  8. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    02 Mar '05 20:53
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    I'm sorry, but I want to be clear on your position.

    Is it permissible to own a slave? If so, under what
    conditions? If not, what about the passage cited by xs?

    Nemesio
    Copied from my ammended position:

    "He's right, it doesn't matter where you live. What matters is that you're an Orthodox Jew who is engaged in war. Remember to release your slave after 6 years of service and to treat him fairly."

    I feel I must add that Christians view this as superfluous, because Jesus released us from the laws of the Old Testament (except the Commandments). And His message that we love our enemies as our friends neatly dismisses the possibility of owning a slave.
  9. Standard member Nemesio
    Ursulakantor
    02 Mar '05 21:13 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Darfius
    "He's right, it doesn't matter where you live. What matters is that you're an Orthodox Jew who is engaged in war. Remember to release your slave after 6 years of service and to treat him fairly."

    So, to return to my question, a Jew who lives in Israel (which is at war
    with Palestine) can morally possess a slave (for 6 years)? God would
    not find this to be morally problematic?

    I feel I must add that Christians view this as superfluous, because Jesus released us from the laws of the Old Testament (except the Commandments). And His message that we love our enemies as our friends neatly dismisses the possibility of owning a slave.


    He released us from being BOUND by the old Laws, but we could still
    follow them. His Laws cannot be evil or wrong, but they don't lead to
    eternal life. Remember, not one jot or tittle of the Law will pass away.

    Since America is at war with Iraq, can I not own an Iraqi prisoner
    for six years (assuming I keep all the other Laws)?

    Nemesio
  10. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    02 Mar '05 21:19
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Originally posted by Darfius
    [b]"He's right, it doesn't matter where you live. What matters is that you're an Orthodox Jew who is engaged in war. Remember to release your slave after 6 years of service and to treat him fairly."


    So, to return to my question, a Jew who lives in Israel (which is at war
    with Palestine) can morally possess a ...[text shortened]... can I not own an Iraqi prisoner
    for six years (assuming I keep all the other Laws)?

    Nemesio[/b]
    On the contrary, to follow even one law is a slap in the face of God. You would be implying that Jesus' sacrifice was not enough. Are you not aware that Paul was very vehement about that?
  11. Standard member Nemesio
    Ursulakantor
    02 Mar '05 21:23
    Originally posted by Darfius
    On the contrary, to follow even one law is a slap in the face of God. You would be implying that Jesus' sacrifice was not enough. Are you not aware that Paul was very vehement about that?
    Why do you conclude this? All St Paul says is that 'the Law cannot
    save.' He does not say that 'to follow the Law is an insult to God.'
    And he does not exclude the possibility of following the Law to the
    letter and salvation. If I keep kosher because I believe in ritual
    cleanliness and I profess that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and live
    a loving Christian life, how is this a slap in God's face?

    And, I'll ask this again: if God's Word is eternal and inerrant, how
    could following it lead me into sin? That is, by noting that I am at
    war with Iraq, how can following the guidlines of Leviticus ever lead me
    into sin?

    Are you saying that following the guidelines 'given by God' in Leviticus
    contradict the guidelines 'given by God' in the NT?

    Nemesio
  12. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    02 Mar '05 21:25
    Originally posted by Darfius
    On the contrary, to follow even one law is a slap in the face of God. You would be implying that Jesus' sacrifice was not enough. Are you not aware that Paul was very vehement about that?
    I'm much relieved to know that I have slapped God in the face through my rigid adherence to 'You shall not commit adultery.' Now I can freely pursue my neighbor's wife.
  13. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    02 Mar '05 21:26
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Why do you conclude this? All St Paul says is that 'the Law cannot
    save.' He does not say that 'to follow the Law is an insult to God.'
    And he does not exclude the possibility of following the Law to the
    letter and salvation. If I keep kosher because I believe in ritual
    cleanliness and I profess that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and live
    a loving ...[text shortened]... 'given by God' in Leviticus
    contradict the guidelines 'given by God' in the NT?

    Nemesio
    Yes, I am saying that, because God warned that's how it would be from His first contact with us. He didn't change His mind, He simply changed the situation. Ritual cleansing? That would be implying that Jesus' blood was not enough to cleanse you.
  14. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    02 Mar '05 21:27
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    I'm much relieved to know that I have slapped God in the face through my rigid adherence to 'You shall not commit adultery.' Now I can freely pursue my neighbor's wife.
    If you'll note, I pointed out that we were free from all laws but the 10 Commandments.
  15. Standard member Nemesio
    Ursulakantor
    02 Mar '05 21:29
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Yes, I am saying that, because God warned that's how it would be from His first contact with us. He didn't change His mind, He simply changed the situation. Ritual cleansing? That would be implying that Jesus' blood was not enough to cleanse you.
    So God's Word, then, is not eternal nor inerrant, for following the
    strictures of the OT would then constitute a sin.

    And, what is your Scriptural support for believing that adherence
    to the Old Law (as such) is an insult to God? How do you reconcile
    this with the idea that 'the Law will never be abolished' said by
    Jesus, Himself?

    Nemesio