01 Feb 16
Originally posted by 667joeNot all pennants go to heaven Joe. Infact no one prior to Jesus went to heaven.
Let's say a man murder's an innocent non Christian. The murderer repents in prison and accepts Jesus. Does this mean the murderer will go to heaven while the non-believer will go to hell?
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. - John 3:13 NIV
Your statement relies for its efficacy on a false premise, that Hell is a Biblical teaching. Clearly it is not.
02 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't see that this is as clear as you make out for Jesus also spoke of a place of reward and punishment. There is another way that this has been translated as we see below:
Not all pennants go to heaven Joe. Infact no one prior to Jesus went to heaven.
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. - John 3:13 NIV
Your statement relies for its efficacy on a false premise, that Hell is a Biblical teaching. Clearly it is not.
John 3:13 New Living Translation
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
In context, I think Jesus may be pointing out to Nicodemus that since Nicodemus was not willing to believe Him on earthly things, then there was no reason to expect Nicodemus to believe spiritual things since no one had gone up into the spiritual heaven and returned to tell about it.
This would not be excluding a spiritual paradise heaven or a spiritual place of torment like hell. After all Jesus did speak of such a place or condition in his parables.
02 Feb 16
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsThe portion you cite is not a translation, its a paraphrase. The fact of the matter is no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ. I don't know why this should be so difficult for you to grasp and the fact that its not entirely clear to you has relevance to no one but you.
I don't see that this is as clear as you make out for Jesus also spoke of a place of reward and punishment. There is another way that this has been translated as we see below:John 3:13 New Living Translation
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
In context, I think Jesus may be pointin ...[text shortened]... e of torment like hell. After all Jesus did speak of such a place or condition in his parables.
Now if no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ as the Bible clearly teaches, where did they go? Clearly loyal servants of God like Moses and the prophets would be unlikely to go to hell, real or imagined.
02 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOnly 144000 of your lot are going.(the brothers)
The portion you cite is not a translation, its a paraphrase. The fact of the matter is no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ. I don't know why this should be so difficult for you to grasp and the fact that its not entirely clear to you has relevance to no one but you.
Now if no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ as the Bible clearl ...[text shortened]... l servants of God like Moses and the prophets would be unlikely to go to hell, real or imagined.
The rest get to frolic on earth.
02 Feb 16
4 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSometimes a direct word for word translation of a language does not present as good a meaning as does a paraphrased translation. In this case we have reason to believe that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven and did not return.
The portion you cite is not a translation, its a paraphrase. The fact of the matter is no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ. I don't know why this should be so difficult for you to grasp and the fact that its not entirely clear to you has relevance to no one but you.
Now if no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ as the Bible clearl ...[text shortened]... l servants of God like Moses and the prophets would be unlikely to go to hell, real or imagined.
2 Kings 2:1 NASB
When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.
Genesis 5:24 NASB
Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
Hebrews 11:5 NASB
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
Notice in Genesis 5 of the book of the genealogy of Adam that it mentions that each person died except Enoch. But Enoch was no more because God took him because he pleased God. So it seems obvious that Jesus did not mean to say no one was ever taken up into heaven.
And I am sure you remember the parable of the begger and the rich man as well as those other parables of Jesus that I referred you to about the existence of a paradise heaven and a tormenting hell as well as what is mentioned in Revelation.
02 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI'm pretty sure the New Testament has Jesus go up a mountain and have a chat with Moses and Elijah who came down from heaven to do it. So this seems to contradict the notion that no one before Jesus went to heaven.
The portion you cite is not a translation, its a paraphrase. The fact of the matter is no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ. I don't know why this should be so difficult for you to grasp and the fact that its not entirely clear to you has relevance to no one but you.
Now if no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ as the Bible clearl ...[text shortened]... l servants of God like Moses and the prophets would be unlikely to go to hell, real or imagined.
02 Feb 16
Originally posted by 667joeAccording to the Bible, if the murderer did truly repent and accept Jesus while in prison, then yes, he goes to Heaven. Also, the non Christian would go to hell. To me, this scenario would be absurd, which is why I have said months ago that I am beginning to modify which parts of the Bible...and Christianity that I am capable of believing. To some people of faith, it is not 'allowed' to doubt anything in the Bible, and that all of it should be believed as written.
Let's say a man murder's an innocent non Christian. The murderer repents in prison and accepts Jesus. Does this mean the murderer will go to heaven while the non-believer will go to hell?
But for me, an Almighty God would not set up such a flimsy set of 'rules' when He decided to send Jesus to the cross. Currently, my belief is that once Jesus made the sacrifice......it was ALL INCLUSIVE......everybody goes to Heaven. This is the only option that makes sense to 'me'.
02 Feb 16
1 edit
Originally posted by 667joeAccording to the Bible, if the murderer did truly repent and accept Jesus while in prison, then yes, he goes to Heaven. Also, the non Christian would go to hell. To me, this scenario would be absurd, which is why I have said months ago that I am beginning to modify which parts of the Bible...and Christianity that I am capable of believing. To some people of faith, it is not 'allowed' to doubt anything in the Bible, and that all of it should be believed as written.
Let's say a man murder's an innocent non Christian. The murderer repents in prison and accepts Jesus. Does this mean the murderer will go to heaven while the non-believer will go to hell?
But for me, an Almighty God would not set up such a flimsy set of 'rules' when He decided to send Jesus to the cross. Currently, my belief is that once Jesus made the sacrifice......it was ALL INCLUSIVE......everybody goes to Heaven. This is the only option that makes sense to 'me'.
Edit: Not sure why or how this was double posted...it happens to me sometimes when sending PM's as well. Anyway, sorry.
02 Feb 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYouall are arguing about a place that is not clearly defined in the Bible, and therefore there is no point in being dogmatic about it. Paul referred to a place he visited, called the third heaven and which he also called paradise. Other non-biblical writings of the Jews are useful in deciphering some of these mysteries but Christianity in general does not seem to read anything other that the 66 books of the 1611 KJV.
The portion you cite is not a translation, its a paraphrase. The fact of the matter is no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ. I don't know why this should be so difficult for you to grasp and the fact that its not entirely clear to you has relevance to no one but you.
Now if no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ as the Bible clearl ...[text shortened]... l servants of God like Moses and the prophets would be unlikely to go to hell, real or imagined.
03 Feb 16
2 edits
Originally posted by chaney3This double posting and odd behavior, like jumping to Public Forums after I post, has been happening to me too. I figured RHP changed something and it is no longer compatible with IE9.
According to the Bible, if the murderer did truly repent and accept Jesus while in prison, then yes, he goes to Heaven. Also, the non Christian would go to hell. To me, this scenario would be absurd, which is why I have said months ago that I am beginning to modify which parts of the Bible...and Christianity that I am capable of believing. To some people ...[text shortened]... w this was double posted...it happens to me sometimes when sending PM's as well. Anyway, sorry.
03 Feb 16
Originally posted by RJHindsI created a post on the Help Forum about this and was advised to send a message on 'Send Feedback', which I did. I will let you know what they tell me if you want?
This double posting and odd behavior, like jumping to Public Forums after I post, has been happening to me too. I figured RHP changed something and it is no longer compatible with IE9.
Originally posted by chaney3Why exactly are you concerned with anything "according to the Bible" or what Christianity and Christians have to say about anything when you have also claimed ~ on this forum, not so long ago ~ that "the Bible is BS" and "man made" and "Christian beliefs are insane" and "Christians don't know anything about God"?
According to the Bible...
03 Feb 16
Originally posted by FMFAm I not allowed to give an opinion FMF? Do you not realize that a person's perspective and/or opinion on a subject can change?
Why exactly are you concerned with anything "according to the Bible" or what Christianity and Christians have to say about anything when you have also claimed ~ on this forum, not so long ago ~ that "the Bible is BS" and "man made" and "Christian beliefs are insane" and "Christians don't know anything about God"?
Let me now ask you a question pertaining to the OP. If a Christian believes in a Heaven, and certain ways on how to get to such a Heaven.....where do you think they get their information?