Originally posted by Thequ1ckWhat if you slowly forgot things over time, in the same way you do now? Then there'd be no abrupt transition. Wouldn't you be the same person?
And what is that?
The way I look at it is, I would love to live forever so long as my memory
is scrubbed every now and again so I don't get too bored.
If you memory is scrubbed, you effectively become a different 'person'
so what's the difference between this and simply dying and letting the
next generation continue?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWe are never the same person. Moment to moment we change. The sameness or continuation is one of those fuzzy edged things. We are not truly a single distinct and definable entity. We are divisible and copyable.
What if you slowly forgot things over time, in the same way you do now? Then there'd be no abrupt transition. Wouldn't you be the same person?
It is theoretically possible to:
1. divide a human being into two living entities.
2. copy a human being into two living entities.
I personally consider those facts to be proof that the commonly proposed concept of the soul is incoherent - and by extension so are most religions.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI agree with you for the most part. However, here's where I get kinda confused.
We are never the same person. Moment to moment we change. The sameness or continuation is one of those fuzzy edged things. We are not truly a single distinct and definable entity. We are divisible and copyable.
It is theoretically possible to:
1. divide a human being into two living entities.
2. copy a human being into two living entities.
I perso ...[text shortened]... he commonly proposed concept of the soul is incoherent - and by extension so are most religions.
You, the typist using the handle twitehead, can experience pain when stuck with a pin. You can also watch someone else get stuck with a pin. There's a fundamental difference between you and they, however; you are you and they aren't. You don't SUFFER from them being stuck.
If you are the person being duplicated...
Do you suddenly find yourself facing an identical twin?
Do you simultaneously see out of BOTH sets of eyes?
Does stabbing twin A cause suffering in twin B?
There's someting about me that cannot be duplicated by identical physical patterns elsewhere. I'm here, not there. Stab the "me" over there and I don't feel it. Right?
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungMaybe we should ask a computer virus ...
If you are the person being duplicated...
Do you suddenly find yourself facing an identical twin?
Do you simultaneously see out of BOTH sets of eyes?
Does stabbing twin A cause suffering in twin B?
Although I have heard lots of stories about identical twins being able to sense each others pain even when separated by extreme distance, I personally don't believe it without more than anecdotal evidence.
I would think that the result of copying would be rather like identical twins, and both the copy and the original (if such a distinction exists) would think that they were the original and would be separate entities from copy time onwards.
There's something about me that cannot be duplicated by identical physical patterns elsewhere. I'm here, not there. Stab the "me" over there and I don't feel it. Right?
The problem is you are forgetting the time element. Yes you cannot be duplicated and remain the same entity as the positions of the two resulting copies would be different, but which of the copies is the original? What if neither is located at the original location? Which one is 'you' and which one is 'him over there', and which one do we say used to type in these forums?
Originally posted by twhiteheadFrom the outside, there's no way to tell. But if you're the person being duplicated, you'll find yourself as one or the other. Unless the original is snuffed out and there are two entirely different people afterwards?!
Maybe we should ask a computer virus ...
Although I have heard lots of stories about identical twins being able to sense each others pain even when separated by extreme distance, I personally don't believe it without more than anecdotal evidence.
I would think that the result of copying would be rather like identical twins, and both the copy and the ...[text shortened]... d which one is 'him over there', and which one do we say used to type in these forums?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungAs I said, you would find yourself as both - or from another perspective, both would think they were the original. How the actual copying process is done and who still has atoms from the origional is really irrelevant.
From the outside, there's no way to tell. But if you're the person being duplicated, you'll find yourself as one or the other. Unless the original is snuffed out and there are two entirely different people afterwards?!
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Originally posted by twhiteheadI would find myself as both? So I'd have two bodies? Cool.
As I said, you would find yourself as both - or from another perspective, both would think they were the original. How the actual copying process is done and who still has atoms from the origional is really irrelevant.
I don't think that's true.
Original atoms are irrelevant, I agree. Humans fully trade away all atoms every 7 years or so, but are still the same people.
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungTo further this question of non-locality.
I agree with you for the most part. However, here's where I get kinda confused.
You, the typist using the handle twitehead, can experience pain when stuck with a pin. You can also watch someone else get stuck with a pin. There's a fundamental difference between you and they, however; you are you and they aren't. You don't SUFFER from them being elsewhere. I'm here, not there. Stab the "me" over there and I don't feel it. Right?
If 90% of our brain patterns are almost identical in humans,
can these brain patterns affect each other in a non-local way?
If so, could this underpin a kind of hidden group conciousness?
Originally posted by Thequ1ckThere is no Law of Sympathy, contrary to what medieval magicians believed. There is no telepathy as far as I know. I don't think there's any vehicle for brain patterns to communicate without speech, or body language, or the like. That's why we have those things.
To further this question of non-locality.
If 90% of our brain patterns are almost identical in humans,
can these brain patterns affect each other in a non-local way?
If so, could this underpin a kind of hidden group conciousness?
But it is possible, of course.
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungThere is an interesting story about the dillution of homeopathy
There is no Law of Sympathy, contrary to what medieval magicians believed. There is no telepathy as far as I know. I don't think there's any vehicle for brain patterns to communicate without speech, or body language, or the like. That's why we have those things.
But it is possible, of course.
that made me wonder if science can really answer all our questions.
'A team of French allergy researchers led by Jacques Benveniste, who has died aged 69, described how an allergy test worked even when the reagent - the substance to be used in the chemical reaction - was so diluted with water that the odds were against a single molecule remaining. Benveniste, a biologist and immunologist, argued that the water used for dilution "remembered" the molecule that had been diluted out of existence.
Nature had printed the article on condition that it could appoint three experts to observe the experiment being replicated. '
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/oct/21/obituaries.guardianobituaries
Anyway to cut a long story short, the team were investigated by
independent scientists who taped the results, wrapped in tinfoil to
the ceiling of the lab. The next day the results were analysed and
found to show a random correlation.
'Randi's defence of the investigation was to argue that if he, Randi, said he kept a goat in his garden, people might be mildly surprised but they would be unlikely to disbelieve him. If, however, he said that he kept a unicorn in his garden, they might want to check how firmly its horn was attached.'
I find Randi's defence to be very interesting. If we consider the wave
/slit experiment on the dual nature of electrons, we find that electrons
behave differently when they are observed, compared to when they
are not.
Could it be said that many other scientific results are also affected by
the act of measuring?