16 Mar 13
Originally posted by divegeesterThe atheist in that video can not honestly deny that the Shroud is the burial garment of Jesus. What he has decided to do is deny the resurrection by claiming that the early Christians saw this image of Jesus instead of the real resurrected body.
OK, I accept that the shroud is a genuine burial garment of a person who was brutalised and wrapped in it.
What now?
16 Mar 13
Originally posted by RJHindsRead my post again dude and THEN post a reply.
The atheist in that video can not honestly deny that the Shroud is the burial garment of Jesus. What he has decided to do is deny the resurrection by claiming that the early Christians saw this image of Jesus instead of the real resurrected body.
17 Mar 13
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterWhat I'm getting at is that in all of recorded history, there is no other burial shroud with an image on it. So whatever got the image on the cloth had to be an extraordinary event.
How would I know! How does the centre of the sun work, I don't know that either but I believe it is the sun. Not sure what you are getting at.
Now whether that event was the resurrection of Jesus Christ or the handiwork of some medieval artist is another question, one that hasn't been answered yet.
Your attitude about the sun is similar to RJ's attitude about the Shroud. He doesn't know how the image got there either, but he believes it is the burial cloth around Jesus as He was resurrected. The only difference is that you can see the sun, but RJ has his evidence via scripture.
You, however, are willing to believe it is the burial shroud of a person. If so, then how do you suppose the image got there? Would it have gotten there had it been someone else's burial shroud and not that of Jesus? How often does that happen to 'normal' burial shrouds? I'm just asking you to step out of yourself and imagine RJ's belief system (only so far as it regards the Shroud), if only for a moment.
17 Mar 13
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterWhat now?
OK, I accept that the shroud is a genuine burial garment of a person who was brutalised and wrapped in it.
What now?
I think now it is only a small stretch to identify the crucified person, whose image is on that Shroud, as Jesus, who is described in the New Testament to have been killed in exactly the same manner.
17 Mar 13
I thing it is believed the image is a perfect negative if I remember correctly. When viewed as a negative it makes a positive image this was one of the unique things about the image and doubt any artist could of created the image. I believe it is thought to be intense radiation like an atomic flash
Manny
17 Mar 13
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/12/the-shroud-of-turin-wasnt-faked-italian-experts-say/
Previous investigation has determined the markings could not have come from pigments or dyes.
The Italian scientists said the marks could only have been made by “a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation.”
Manny
17 Mar 13
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneLet me make myself perfectly clear, I don't care for the shroud because it is an idol, a relic, another vicarious point of interest other than Jesus Christ, it is a distraction and for some a crutch onto which they rest their battered faith in the vain hope this grotty little rag will somehow rekindle the fire that once burned brightly if at all.
What I'm getting at is that in all of recorded history, there is no other burial shroud with an image on it. So whatever got the image on the cloth had to be an extraordinary event.
Now whether that event was the resurrection of Jesus Christ or the handiwork of some medieval artist is another question, one that hasn't been answered yet.
Your attitude magine RJ's belief system (only so far as it regards the Shroud), if only for a moment.
The God I vaguely know is not interested in such things because there is only one point of interest we should be directing people to and that Jesus Christ and his completed work at Calvary 2000 years ago.
So you see I can believe it is a real person but I honestly don't care one way or the other. I would wager a lot to say it is not Jesus Christ though and yes I do find it astounding that people seeking God pay any regard to this distraction.
17 Mar 13
Originally posted by divegeesterI personally don't care for relics either, as, like you, I believe our focus should indeed be our Lord Jesus Christ.
Let me make myself perfectly clear, I don't care for the shroud because it is an idol, a relic, another vicarious point of interest other than Jesus Christ, it is a distraction and for some a crutch onto which they rest their battered faith in the vain hope this grotty little rag will somehow rekindle the fire that once burned brightly if at all.
The ...[text shortened]... gh and yes I do find it astounding that people seeking God pay any regard to this distraction.
But it goes beyond that. If this relic or relics like these bring people to God then it's all good. People like RJH point to items like this and say it proves their faith. Now a lot of emphasis is laid on "proof" in this forum, and I'm sure that this is what caused RJH to launch into the whole discussion we've been having about the Shroud in this forum in the first place.
Now I also say that I have the faith of the mustard seed, an unshakeable faith that cannot be displaced by a handful of atheists in this forum, try as they might. All this said, the legitimacy of the Shroud of Turn has not been proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt. To me, it holds no further proof of God than any other relic, and furthermore, my faith does not depend on it being proven, either.
But this still doesn't stop my being fascinated by it (and discussion of it), as it easily 'could' be true. No matter if it were found to be false OR true tomorrow, I doubt that would change my life either way. But it also doesn't make me want to stamp my feet and yell "Who cares?" to any that would listen.
I just wanted you to have a little (just a little is enough) empathy for RJ's excitement for an item that he feels "proves" his faith. Just to step beyond your "tsk, tsk"-ing for one moment and see it from his side, that's all.