Originally posted by sonhouseI agree that it is not simple for man to understand. The complexity testifies of a super intellect that can design, understand, and make things with such high complexity rather than the simplistic idea that it just happened by chance rolling of the dice over trillions of years. The theory of evolution is a religious dogma of Atheists based on Satanic ideas relying primarily on faith and not true facts.
You can simplify it all you want but the real situation is so complex there is no simple answer. Bacteria can share genetic material non sexually, sideways evolution if you will, which I know you won't but genes are not the end of the story, just one page. New pages are being added all the time, such as codons and such that control gene expression from outs ...[text shortened]... es, ready to deal with such stress pre planned, built in from a billion years of hard knocks.
Originally posted by RJHindsI didn't say it was so complex mankind could never understand genes, I said it was more complex than they first thought.
I agree that it is not simple for man to understand. The complexity testifies of a super intellect that can design, understand, and make things with such high complexity rather than the simplistic idea that it just happened by chance rolling of the dice over trillions of years. The theory of evolution is a religious dogma of Atheists based on Satanic ideas relying primarily on faith and not true facts.
And only you and a few fellow christians claim it is all guided by god every animal, every mutation, not even thinking about the part where a god might not WANT to have to guide every genetic move on Earth, not to mention the rest of the planets with life on it.
Oh, I forgot. We can't know the mind of god, which is true since the god you worship was man made.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
Again, if the reverse mutation adds back the same exact genetic information that was lost in the first place, there is no new genetic information gained. Also, there is no clear understanding of how this reverse mutation takes place and how it is able to get the exact genetic information that was previous lost and not some other genetic information. I thin ...[text shortened]... xplanation is that it came from a bacteria that had not lost that particular geneic information.
Again, if the reverse mutation adds back the same exact genetic information that was lost in the first place, there is no new genetic information gained.
you bring up this totally irrelevant point up yet again so I just point out what I did before which was:
the fact still remains that the reverse mutation adds information.
And, and this is the critical point you just seem to not get here;
if a mutation adds information that another earlier mutation just happened to take away then what barrier is there for a mutation occurring that also adds information but one that does NOT add back information that an earlier mutation just happened to take away?
-answer, no barrier of course!
-if you deny this, then explain to us exactly what this barrier is.... (my quote)
-thus proving that a mutation can add new information thus your point is totally irrelevant.
Also, there is no clear understanding of how this reverse mutation takes place
that is a lie. The causes of a reverse mutation is, of course, the same as the causes of any other random mutations and the causes of random mutations have been researched and they understand what those causes are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutagenesis
and how it is able to get the exact genetic information that was previous lost and not some other genetic information.
you are talking yet more crap; if there is enough random mutations within a population then, obviously, it is just a matter of time before some individual gets the reverse mutation. It is just a matter of the mathematics of probability.
Here is my first killer question:
If a mutation consists of a T base mutating to a G base then what barrier is preventing a later mutation from changing that G base back to a T base?
well? WHAT is the barrier to stop this happening? -enlighten all of us please.....
-or do you simply don't know what you are talking about? ( rhetorical question )
I think the logical explanation is that it came from a bacteria that had not lost that particular geneic information.
how can that be “ the logical explanation” when bacteria don't reproduce sexually? 😛
the proof still stands unchallenged:
A mutation often consists of a “point mutation” where only one DNA base is changed.
If such a point mutation M1 occurs that results in a “loss” of information by, for example, preventing a fully functional protein being produced ( which is sometimes one of the effects of a point mutation ) by changing, say, a T base to a G base then that proves that that T base CAN mutate to a G base so what barrier exists that would make it impossible for that G base later on to mutate back to a T base? -answer, none.
Therefore, LOGICALLY, such a possible reverse mutation M2 that reverses a mutation M1 that represents a “loss” of information means that mutation M2 must represent a “gain” of information no matter how you look at it.
you still haven't answered my second killer question:
I ask my question again:
If a mutation can add information that another earlier mutation just happened to take away then what barrier is there to stop a mutation occurring that also adds information but one that does NOT add back information that an earlier mutation just happened to take away?
well? WHAT is the barrier to stop this happening? -enlighten all of us please.....
-or do you simply don't know what you are talking about? ( rhetorical question )
Your non-answers to my two killer questions above clearly demonstrates that you cannot explain why a mutation cannot add new information as you claim -so you are wrong. Why not just admit the obvious?
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Originally posted by sonhouseI have not claimed God is guiding every single gene, but that HE is the intelligence behind putting the DNA program code in HIS living creations.
I didn't say it was so complex mankind could never understand genes, I said it was more complex than they first thought.
And only you and a few fellow christians claim it is all guided by god every animal, every mutation, not even thinking about the part where a god might not WANT to have to guide every genetic move on Earth, not to mention the rest of ...[text shortened]... I forgot. We can't know the mind of god, which is true since the god you worship was man made.
Originally posted by humyThe barrier is God. God has put DNA code into all living things that limits them to a specific kind and that barrier can not be broken or else God is a liar and that can not be true.
Again, if the reverse mutation adds back the same exact genetic information that was lost in the first place, there is no new genetic information gained.
you bring up this totally irrelevant point up yet again so I just point out what I did before which was:
[quote] the fact still remains that the reverse mutation adds information.
And ...[text shortened]... n cannot add new information as you claim -so you are wrong. Why not just admit the obvious?
For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”
(Romans 3:3-4 NKJV)
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Originally posted by RJHinds
The barrier is God. God has put DNA code into all living things that limits them to a specific kind and that barrier can not be broken or else God is a liar and that can not be true.
For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is wr ...[text shortened]... u may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”
(Romans 3:3-4 NKJV)
God has put DNA code into all living things that limits them to a specific kind and that barrier can not be broken or else God is a liar and that can not be true.
were did you get that religious belief about DNA from? If that really is your religious belief then science has disproved it.
The barrier is God.
at last you have finally answer the question!
It is a shamefully totally ludicrous answer which I guess is why you took an eternity to finally just say it else why did it take you so long just to say it? I mean, if the answer is just “ The barrier is God” then it takes no great effort just to think that and only a moment to type it down!
So now we get at the hart of the absurdity of your belief; it is now “God” that is preventing a mutation that can in any sense add 'new information'.
So you finally reveal that you objection to observations and logic that indicate that a mutation can add 'new information' is NOT rationally based on reason/evidence but rather is based on your religious conviction -thank you; the truth at last!
So, let us get this absolutely straight, you answer to my first question which was:
If a mutation consists of a T base mutating to a G base then what barrier is preventing a later mutation from changing that G base back to a T base?
is that the barrier that is stopping is NOT a natural one but a supernatural one and, to be more specific, “God” ?
So lets be absolutely clear on this, if a mutation consists of a T base mutating to a G base then it is a “God” that will intervene to preventing a later mutation from changing that G base back to a T base? -even though we have absolutely no evidence for this intervention and even though we have statistical evidence that the probability of a mutation is not effected by any previous one and even though we even have evidence that the reverse mutation does sometimes happen? -if yes, thank you for revealing you absurd position.
Would you now admit that if there was no “God” then there would be NO barrier for the reverse mutation? -so the ONLY barrier according to you is “God” and therefore there is no natural law saying there is a barrier?
And so, let also us get this absolutely straight, you answer to my second question which was:
If a mutation can add information that another earlier mutation just happened to take away then what barrier is there to stop a mutation occurring that also adds information but one that does NOT add back information that an earlier mutation just happened to take away?
is that the barrier that is stopping is, again, NOT a natural one but a supernatural one and to be more specific, “God” ?
So lets be absolutely clear on this also, “God” will always intervene to stop a mutation from adding new information unless that information is not really new because it was just information that was lost earlier? -even though we have absolutely no evidence for this intervention and even though we have statistical evidence that the probability of a mutation is not effected by any previous one and even though we even have evidence that such a mutation does sometimes happen? -if yes, thank you for revealing you absurd position.
Again, would you now admit that if there was no “God” then there would be NO barrier for such a mutation? -so the ONLY barrier according to you is “God” and therefore there is no natural law saying there is a barrier?
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Originally posted by RJHinds
I have not claimed God is guiding every single gene, but that HE is the intelligence behind putting the DNA program code in HIS living creations.
have not claimed God is guiding every single gene,
You at least appear to have possibly contradicted yourself here. Your answer to my last post was
The barrier is God.
which can only be taken to be your answer to my two questions of what the barrier is for the said mutations occurring.
Are you now going to say that the barrier is not a God? Or perhaps the barrier is a God selectively intervene to prevent ONLY those mutations that threaten to create “new information”? Or what?
Originally posted by RJHindsWell then, if your god does not climb aboard every gene change, then you have to admit, perhaps your god set things up so evolution does the work of your god.
I have not claimed God is guiding every single gene, but that HE is the intelligence behind putting the DNA program code in HIS living creations.
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Originally posted by rvsakhadeoyes, if there is a God.
I think that is a more reasonable supposition.
And if there is, that God could not possibly be the RJHinds God only in very small part because that God, strangely and arbitrarily, doesn't allow any mutation that in any sense adds “new information”, apparently.
He just finally revealed in his last post here that his only real premise for believing this about mutations is not rationally evidence/logic but purely religious.
So all his previous “arguments” ( wrong word but not sure of an alternative word; most if not all were not actually arguments ) against mutations giving new information accounted for absolutely nothing because, not only were they all proven either totally irrelevant or erroneous, but they were nothing to do with his real objection which was purely religious.
The big problem with his position is that, not only is there ample evidence to show that a mutation can add new information thus disproving that his 'God' exists,
I have given him proof that, logically, unless this 'God' mysteriously intervenes to stop each and every random mutation that in some sense adds “new information” ( whatever the likes of RJHinds exactly mean by “new information” -they have never made this clear ) , there logically should be mutation that in some sense adds “new information”!
This is because there clearly is no natural barrier for such random mutations occasionally occurring and the mathematics of probability means it must be virtually inevitable that some do.
The only barrier for this he has given is “God” but that is not a natural barrier because a “God” is supposed to be supernatural and, not only is there no evidence for a God, RJHinds has made it totally unclear whether he believes this “God” does or doesn't mysteriously intervenes to stop each and every random mutation that in some sense add “new information” for RJHinds, after finally admitted simply “The barrier is God. “, had said just previously, “have not claimed God is guiding every single gene,” -his position here is obviously totally muddled.
Originally posted by RJHindsThe barrier is God. God has put DNA code into all living things that limits them to a specific kind and that barrier can not be broken or else God is a liar and that can not be true.
The barrier is God. God has put DNA code into all living things that limits them to a specific kind and that barrier can not be broken or else God is a liar and that can not be true.
For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is wr ...[text shortened]... u may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”
(Romans 3:3-4 NKJV)
This is circular reasoning, another of the logical fallacies described in the YouTube link he posted a week or so ago.
He is attempting to prove 'God' by pointing out problems with evolution. One of the problems he suggests is that evolution can't produce new 'information'. He provides no evidence for this and indeed there is plenty of evidence that it can. When pushed he says 'God' prevents it, even there is no sign that it is being prevented at all!
RJ: Evolution can't do X, so God exists.
People-with-a-brain: Evolution does X all the time
RJ: No it doesn't because God prevents it.
--- Penguin
Originally posted by humyThere would be no bacteria at all if God had not created it. There would be no possibility for bacteria to reproduce or to mutate if God had not created a process for the bacteria to reproduce. But God did create a bacteria and one with the ability to reproduce after its own kind. There is where the boundary lies in any mutation away from that backeria gaining new genetic information to change to another kind. God is not supernaturally intervening in the life of the bacteria today. He already did that at creation a little over 6,000 years ago.God has put DNA code into all living things that limits them to a specific kind and that barrier can not be broken or else God is a liar and that can not be true.
were did you get that religious belief about DNA from? If that really is your religious belief then science has disproved it.The barrier is God.
at last you ...[text shortened]... r according to you is “God” and therefore there is no natural law saying there is a barrier?
Originally posted by sonhouseGod set things up to allow for adaption and to prevent evolution through mutations. It just does not happen and there is no observable proof that it does. That is what real science is based on - observable facts.
Well then, if your god does not climb aboard every gene change, then you have to admit, perhaps your god set things up so evolution does the work of your god.
Originally posted by RJHindsSo we must be gods then, we regularly reprogram the DNA in bacteria to produce insulin and other medically useful drugs. We know just where to cut and paste genes from other life forms to give us products not known in nature. Your god didn't even know about this stuff.
There would be no bacteria at all if God had not created it. There would be no possibility for bacteria to reproduce or to mutate if God had not created a process for the bacteria to reproduce. But God did create a bacteria and one with the ability to reproduce after its own kind. There is where the boundary lies in any mutation away from that backeria ga ...[text shortened]... the life of the bacteria today. He already did that at creation a little over 6,000 years ago.
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Originally posted by sonhouseGod knows about it, that is for sure.
So we must be gods then, we regularly reprogram the DNA in bacteria to produce insulin and other medically useful drugs. We know just where to cut and paste genes from other life forms to give us products not known in nature. Your god didn't even know about this stuff.
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
(Genesis 1:26 NASB)
God gave mankind dominion over the bacteria, too.