1. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    03 Jun '08 10:22
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Do you think that bigotry would be reduced if we were all 'race neutral' and had no religion?
    The recent xenophobia in South Africa thrives on the fact that the foreigners where reasonably easily identifiable either by looks or by language. There are probably quite a lot of people who avoided being attacked because nobody knew they were foreign.
    I am to ...[text shortened]... tly because they do not socialize much with their neighbors, and they look distinctly foreign.
    Presumably if we were all lobotomised bigotry would fall away.

    A better idea might be to work on cultivating ethics among all communities.

    Everybody hears a different story. I tend to agree that Somalians are targeted because they are better at business than local people who lack skills and have an attitude of entitlement: their success causes resentment, and they are attacked 'because they are stealing our jobs and benefiting unduly from our freedom'. In other words the same reason Jews were attacked in Europe. Although in this case religion has nothing whatsoever to do with the situation: the drivers appear to be institutional (apartheid legacy, failure of government post 1994) and economic.
  2. Standard memberPalynka
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    03 Jun '08 10:271 edit
    An opinion attacking religion for being divisive is, by definition, being divisive.

    What an improvement, eh?
  3. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    03 Jun '08 10:55
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Always taking the balanced view eh? Whilst no -one can dispute the things you talk about do take place. It's hardly an objective assessment is it? You call yourself an objective scientist but the chip on your shoulder is so huge sometimes my computer falls off the desk!
    Like Dawkins says, the moderates facilitate the extremists.
  4. Cape Town
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    03 Jun '08 11:42
    Originally posted by Palynka
    An opinion attacking religion for being divisive is, by definition, being divisive.

    What an improvement, eh?
    To point out the ridiculousness of your comment, attacking apartheid and other forms of racism is divisive too. That doesn't mean that racism is better than attacking racism or that attacking racism can never lead to an improvement.
  5. Standard memberPalynka
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    03 Jun '08 12:06
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    To point out the ridiculousness of your comment, attacking apartheid and other forms of racism is divisive too. That doesn't mean that racism is better than attacking racism or that attacking racism can never lead to an improvement.
    The ridiculousness lies in your critique of religion if you wish to claim divisiveness is not bad per se.
  6. Standard memberduecer
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    03 Jun '08 12:16
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I frequently meet people who admit to being slightly or mostly agnostic or even outright atheist but who still go to Church for various reasons (social, therapeutic etc).
    In the God Delusion, Richard Dawkins raises a number of reasons why religion - even moderate or social religion is not necessarily a good thing.

    I would like a discussion about the v ...[text shortened]... big an issue do people think that is, and what other problems are there with moderate religion?
    It is clear to anyone reading your posts that you have an agenda. Your hatred of anyone of faith is quite evident. The saddest part , in my view, is that you don't really have a clue about what most people of faith feel or believe. You immediatly lump everyone one into one catagory in a one size fits all philosophy. I have news for you whitey... the world doesn't work that way.
    As for your underlying and unresolved anger issues with religion, I would suggest therapy, not so you can be "brainwashed" into believing, but just so you can finally have some peace in your life.
  7. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    03 Jun '08 12:29
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    To point out the ridiculousness of your comment, attacking apartheid and other forms of racism is divisive too. That doesn't mean that racism is better than attacking racism or that attacking racism can never lead to an improvement.
    What about Tutu say?
  8. Cape Town
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    03 Jun '08 12:55
    Originally posted by Palynka
    The ridiculousness lies in your critique of religion if you wish to claim divisiveness is not bad per se.
    I am not sure that divisiveness is always bad. I personally think that the divisiveness caused by both race and religion are both bad. Whether skin color or God are to blame is another matter.

    I fail to see your argument though. Maybe you can expand on it?
  9. Standard memberPalynka
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    03 Jun '08 13:01
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I am not sure that divisiveness is always bad. I personally think that the divisiveness caused by both race and religion are both bad. Whether skin color or God are to blame is another matter.

    I fail to see your argument though. Maybe you can expand on it?
    I'm saying you need to substantiate on why divisiveness caused by religion is bad when other forms of divisiveness are good.

    Overall, I think your original argument is nonsensical even ignoring your strange definition of "moderate religion".
  10. Cape Town
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    03 Jun '08 13:03
    Originally posted by duecer
    It is clear to anyone reading your posts that you have an agenda. Your hatred of anyone of faith is quite evident.
    I don't hate everyone of faith. Nearly everyone I know is a theist including friends and family. I even like a few of the theists on this site to a certain degree and would probably get on well with them if I knew them better. I simply don't agree with them about the existence of God.

    The saddest part , in my view, is that you don't really have a clue about what most people of faith feel or believe.
    That is largely true, and one reason I come to this forum. I am curious about why people behave as if they are deluded (from my perspective).

    You immediatly lump everyone one into one catagory in a one size fits all philosophy.
    Sorry, I try not to, but its hard to shove in those qualifying words in every sentence.
    I don't think religion always causes division, but I have experienced many cases when it has. If you don't believe me, or think that the times when it does the opposite outweighs the bad times then why not say so instead of attacking me?

    As for your underlying and unresolved anger issues with religion, I would suggest therapy, not so you can be "brainwashed" into believing, but just so you can finally have some peace in your life.
    I'm not nearly as unbalanced as I might seem on this website. I generally don't concern myself too much with religion in my daily life.
  11. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    03 Jun '08 13:05
    Originally posted by duecer
    It is clear to anyone reading your posts that you have an agenda. Your hatred of anyone of faith is quite evident. The saddest part , in my view, is that you don't really have a clue about what most people of faith feel or believe. You immediatly lump everyone one into one catagory in a one size fits all philosophy. I have news for you whitey... the world doe ...[text shortened]... n be "brainwashed" into believing, but just so you can finally have some peace in your life.
    I don't think Twhitehead hates people of faith. In fact, by his posts, he doesn't really seem to hate anyone. He does have a major beef with organised religions seems to be them trying to foist their beliefs on others.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    03 Jun '08 13:07
    Originally posted by twhitehead

    I'm not nearly as unbalanced as I might seem on this website.
    😀
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    03 Jun '08 13:12
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    That basically sounds like "if you don't take religion seriously...."

    I think religion has a host of negative psychological aspects to it, including practices tantamount to brainwashing (anyone seen "Jesus Camp"😉, the projection of a negative psychology on children and vulnerable adults (the "I'm a terrible sinner who is going to Hell forever syndrom ...[text shortened]... stians that believe the rapture is coming, and fail to do anything about global warming).
    why do people insist that if you don't treat your religion with fanaticism you are not very serious about it? Why are religious people viewed as mindless drones and atheists are the freethinkers of tomorrow?
    why are all religious people associated retarded extremists: like a muslim being associated with a muslim terrorist blowing himself up or a christian being labeled as creationist, inquisitor or brainwasher?

    this is prejudice and you know it. with this way of thinking of course you will only find harmful aspects of religion because the good aspects happen only "if you don't take religion seriously...."
  14. Cape Town
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    03 Jun '08 13:14
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I'm saying you need to substantiate on why divisiveness caused by religion is bad when other forms of divisiveness are good.
    Here in South Africa, even though there is no official racism (aparthied), there is still a significant amount of segregation. When I see movies about the US, I see a similar pattern. I see movies about schools where the different ethnic groups all stick together and wont mix with each other socially.
    We all know about incidences where this sort of division has resulted in terrible consequences: The holocaust, the Rwanda genocide, Zimbabwe, Northern Ireland etc etc.
    I personally know people who have been disowned by their families for marrying into the wrong religion or race.
    I assumed that it was obvious what the problems were which is why I put forward no argument.

    Are you arguing that this kind of division is a good thing, or at least not detrimental?

    Overall, I think your original argument is nonsensical even ignoring your strange definition of "moderate religion".
    Maybe you didn't understand my argument at all. My basic argument is that people who say "There is no harm in going to Church even though I am not really that religious myself" are wrong. There is harm and I am trying to show that that harm can often be significant. I also want comments from other people on what harm they see religion doing. I am not looking at the worst of religion such as suicide bombers and fundamentalists trying to push ID into schools, but rather the people who sit back and say "I'm not like those fundamentalists".
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    03 Jun '08 13:15
    Originally posted by duecer
    It is clear to anyone reading your posts that you have an agenda. Your hatred of anyone of faith is quite evident. The saddest part , in my view, is that you don't really have a clue about what most people of faith feel or believe. You immediatly lump everyone one into one catagory in a one size fits all philosophy. I have news for you whitey... the world doe ...[text shortened]... n be "brainwashed" into believing, but just so you can finally have some peace in your life.
    not really hate. rather a conviction (almost like faith 😀) that god does not exist.

    and of course the fact that there is no evidence of god means we, the theist people should give up our system of belief, philosophy and replace it with his way of thinking. am i close?
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