1. Standard memberNemesio
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    26 Jul '08 23:093 edits
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    For example you are talking about beating your wife. And you of course assume that this beating is hard beating that will cause harm, although in Hadith it is defined very differently . And it is far from what you think (it is just defined as pating).

    A little over a year ago, you also said:

    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Again Sunna defined beating as light beating , for example , using Meswak stick (Meswak stick is a small normally 5cm long 8mm thick stick used by Arabs to clean their teeth). So what is allowed is light beating by this stick.
    from Thread 69035, page 1

    Now, given that it is 'only a light beating,' you feel that such behavior is morally permissible,
    even when the wife if failing in her every duty as 'wife?' Are we clear on this?

    And, to further clarify, what does a 'light beating' consist of? Can it break skin? Can it leave
    a bruise? Does it cause any pain?

    Nemesio
  2. At the Revolution
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    26 Jul '08 23:28
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    [b]For example you are talking about beating your wife. And you of course assume that this beating is hard beating that will cause harm, although in Hadith it is defined very differently . And it is far from what you think (it is just defined as pating).


    A little over a year ago, you also said:

    [i]Originally po ...[text shortened]... sist of? Can it break skin? Can it leave
    a bruise? Does it cause any pain?

    Nemesio[/b]
    A light beating is followed only in strictly Orthodox Muslim countries, namely, Saudi Arabia and Iran.
  3. Joined
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    27 Jul '08 01:041 edit
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    [b]For example you are talking about beating your wife. And you of course assume that this beating is hard beating that will cause harm, although in Hadith it is defined very differently . And it is far from what you think (it is just defined as pating).


    A little over a year ago, you also said:

    [i]Originally po sist of? Can it break skin? Can it leave
    a bruise? Does it cause any pain?

    Nemesio[/b]
    Now, given that it is 'only a light beating,' you feel that such behavior is morally permissible, even when the wife if failing in her every duty as 'wife?' Are we clear on this?

    I think there a word missing in this question but I will try to answer as much as I understand

    The light beating is not for a wife that fail in her duty as a wife. It is allowed only for the wife who is in a complete disopedience to her husband (may be this expression is not accurate, I can't find the right word to describe it but in Arabic it is called "Noshos", it is the case when the woman in a complete disopediance to her husband), refused all the trials to correct her behaviour by her family, refused to listen to her husband. So if the wife just fail to do some of her duty that doesn't give her husband the right to beat her at all. And if he did that she can ask for divorce and the judge will give it to her.

    When I say it is allowed, that doesn't mean it is a must. In other words the it is not an order from Allah for a man to bear his wife. It is just a methodology to allow the man to show his wife that she reached a stage where her behaviour is not acceptable.

    Of course the measurement of the acceptable behaviour is not up to the man to decide. It is measured by matching the Islamic morals. In other words the husband can't force his wife to do things that is aganis the Islamic moral values (like driniking for example), and if she refused to obey him in this case he has no right to beat her.

    In general the husband given control of the family because he usually the source of funding for the family, and the wife is not asked to fund her husband. So in case that the family if funded by the wife, then the husband has no right to that as well.

    I tried to answer as much as I understanded your questions.

    And, to further clarify, what does a 'light beating' consist of?
    I think I defined it in the two quotes you posted above. This type of beating is allowed not punish the wife as if she is a child, by causeing pain. It is ment so that the husband show that is not happy about the behaviour of his wife (as described above). I think any man and woman in relation may use light pating in same cased when they have an angry discussion.

    Can it break skin?
    No

    Can it leave a bruise?
    No
    Does it cause any pain?

    No

    and in case any of the three above things happen it is considered a crime, and the husband could be accused for it, as I explained in the thread you quoted.

    Hope I answered your questions.
  4. Standard memberNemesio
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    27 Jul '08 01:51
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    I think I defined it in the two quotes you posted above. This type of beating is allowed not punish the wife as if she is a child, by causeing pain. It is ment so that the husband show that is not happy about the behaviour of his wife (as described above). I think any man and woman in relation may use light pating in same cased when they have an angry discussion.
    Okay. For illustrative purposes, can you find a video on youtube or some other site that shows
    the sort of 'light beating' that you mean?

    I've tried and have had no luck to find an Islamic site that supports your interpretation of the
    Holy Qu'ran. Can you point me to such a site?

    Nemesio
  5. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    27 Jul '08 03:11
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Okay. For illustrative purposes, can you find a video on youtube or some other site that shows
    the sort of 'light beating' that you mean?

    I've tried and have had no luck to find an Islamic site that supports your interpretation of the
    Holy Qu'ran. Can you point me to such a site?

    Nemesio
    This guy says no bleeding, bruising, broken bones or targetting the face or other "sensitive part" of the body.

    YouTube
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    27 Jul '08 03:14
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Okay. For illustrative purposes, can you find a video on youtube or some other site that shows
    the sort of 'light beating' that you mean?

    I've tried and have had no luck to find an Islamic site that supports your interpretation of the
    Holy Qu'ran. Can you point me to such a site?

    Nemesio
    I can give a link to an Arabic site,

    These two sites are talking about this topic, and both I trust:

    The egyptian Fatwa office:
    http://www.dar-alifta.org/ViewWoman.aspx?ID=17

    Islam Way Site:
    http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=Article&iw_a=view&article_id=1628

    But both in arabic, you can use Google translation to give a close meaning, but of course that may not work well.

    If you give me a time I will try to find something in English from a trusted source.

    Thank you for your approach of asking, I like that.
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    27 Jul '08 03:23
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Okay. For illustrative purposes, can you find a video on youtube or some other site that shows
    the sort of 'light beating' that you mean?

    I've tried and have had no luck to find an Islamic site that supports your interpretation of the
    Holy Qu'ran. Can you point me to such a site?

    Nemesio
    I think this one will help more:

    YouTube&feature=related

    Yusuf Estes was priest and then converted long time ago.
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    27 Jul '08 03:24
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    This guy says no bleeding, bruising, broken bones or targetting the face or other "sensitive part" of the body.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
    Yes that one answer part of the question, but it doesn't include the illustration required.
  9. Standard memberNemesio
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    31 Jul '08 03:48
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    I can give a link to an Arabic site,

    These two sites are talking about this topic, and both I trust:

    The egyptian Fatwa office:
    http://www.dar-alifta.org/ViewWoman.aspx?ID=17

    Islam Way Site:
    http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=Article&iw_a=view&article_id=1628

    But both in arabic, you can use Google translation to give a close meaning, but of course ...[text shortened]... mething in English from a trusted source.

    Thank you for your approach of asking, I like that.
    So, for all intents and purposes, the 'beating' is really symbolic and not literal, right? That is,
    if no bruising, bleeding, or even pain is present, it's not actually a 'beating' in any literal sense.
    If this is true, I am glad to hear that.

    But this reading you offer, and the scholars who support it, are merely offering an interpretation, right?
    I mean, it's patent that there are other Moslems who actually take this literally, right? How do
    you approach dialogue with someone who professes to be a Moslem, but (literally) beats his
    wife?

    Nemesio
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    31 Jul '08 04:26
    Wife beating, symbolic or not, is still an admission the men are in a higher bracket of society.
    What about 'honor killing' where it is the women who are killed and the men just given a tongue lashing?
  11. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    31 Jul '08 06:34
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Wife beating, symbolic or not, is still an admission the men are in a higher bracket of society.
    What about 'honor killing' where it is the women who are killed and the men just given a tongue lashing?
    Hmmm, how about an honor killing of the husband for bringing shame to the family by beating his wife? Nah, that'd never fly...
  12. Standard membershavixmir
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    31 Jul '08 10:20
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    [b]For example you are talking about beating your wife. And you of course assume that this beating is hard beating that will cause harm, although in Hadith it is defined very differently . And it is far from what you think (it is just defined as pating).


    A little over a year ago, you also said:

    [i]Originally po ...[text shortened]... sist of? Can it break skin? Can it leave
    a bruise? Does it cause any pain?

    Nemesio[/b]
    Any culture which allows beatings as punishment is backwards as far as I'm concerned.
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    31 Jul '08 10:22
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Any culture which allows beatings as punishment is backwards as far as I'm concerned.
    But one that tolerates beatings for pleasure is advanced!
  14. Standard membershavixmir
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    31 Jul '08 10:32
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    But one that tolerates beatings for pleasure is advanced!
    Well, that negates punishment for sure.

    But if two consenting adults want to slice off their genitalia or whatever... that's up to them.
    If it's physically destructive I would probably prefer them (even if they're consenting) to get some therapy... just to make sure...

    But hell, I'd beat AthousandYoung with a stick to within an inch of his life if he wanted me to.
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    31 Jul '08 10:37
    Originally posted by shavixmir

    But hell, I'd beat AthousandYoung with a stick to within an inch of his life if he wanted me to.
    😵
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