Non Christians have all kinds of problems with this. I hear them say "how can he call himself a Christian and do______!" Folks, just because one accepts Christ as their savior, this does not mean they've immediately been given a backstage pass to a life of sin free perfection. If GOD had wanted his followers to be perfect little sin free robots, who mindlessly walked a perfect path he certainly could have created them. After his conversion, the apostle Paul, one of the most devout followers of Jesus said of himself:
So, I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in GOD's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to GOD- through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It needs to be said over and over again:
Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.
@fmf saidBy nonchalantly throwing out the entire cause of salvation, grace, you limit his response to what you want to hear. Christians are saved through grace, because salvation cannot be earned. Nothing Christians "do" saves them. Salvation is found through accepting the gift of Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary. Period.
What is it you think Christians do that results in them being "forgiven" ~ aside from believing that "Jesus" has "forgiven" them?
@suzianne saidI am always nonchalant. And I am not "throwing out" anything; I am just being succinct. "Grace" is just a piece of terminology referring to what Christians think they are getting for believing they are "forgiven" [a.k.a. believing in Jesus, sacrifice, atonement etc.]. I don't think you are even trying to disguise it. But, that aside, my question is for mchill.
By nonchalantly throwing out the entire cause of salvation, grace, you limit his response to what you want to hear. Christians are saved through grace, because salvation cannot be earned. Nothing Christians "do" saves them. Salvation is found through accepting the gift of Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary. Period.
The problems with this perennial debate stem from an agreed understanding of a definition of “forgiveness” “forgiven” and the links to salvation, freedom, general well being. Furthermore forgiveness can easily be viewed as an emotional state when it is primarily legal one and indeed a process. (Edited).
If a child comes to its parent and tearfully says “daddy I’m sorry” the parent will usually emotionally melt and “forgive” the child. This to me is not a representation of God’s forgiveness i.e. a blue eyed blond haired Jesus siting with a metaphorical sinner on his knee rebuking the nasty atheists. That is bollocks, frankly.
In my opinion the forgiveness given by God originates from John 3:16 but it is in effect a metaphorical legal process of redeeming a person. It is about ownership, God owns your ass! You, we are slaves. We were “bought with a price”, the scripture says so.
To experience the outcome of that forgiveness, of that redemptive process we must approach God in faith, recognising and acknowledging the ticket price by which we were bought. We have been plucked from the execution line and redeemed, like it or not.
Now all this stuff about good works and sinning has absolutely no doctrinal bearing on the legal transaction that has taken place. God will not resell you, us, back to the executioner. However what is doctrinally sound is God disciplining his children, hence “disciple”. If we continue to sin, if we do not obey the instruction to do good works then there are disciplinary consequences in our lives on earth and in eternity.
But once you are the child of your parent you are always the child of your parent.
My belief is that the price that was paid redeemed the entirety of mankind and the visions of Hell are now obsolete. Hell is gone, it is no more, it has ceased to be, it is an ex hell. It’s all there in scripture if one chooses to look for it.
Controversial bit of my own belief coming up....
So what happens to the atheists? Well they get a nice surprise when they die. But they don’t get to experience that surprise on earth unless they come to God in faith. Also whatever the next life looks like (who knows) they will not have stored up metaphorical “treasure in heaven”. Tough love.
Roast me.
@fmf saidRepentance. To change the mind. One "turns" away from a lifestyle of habitual known sin, and turns toward God.
What is it you think Christians do that results in them being "forgiven" ~ aside from believing that "Jesus" has "forgiven" them?
Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Salvation, forgiveness, eternal life are not arbitrarily bestowed. One must choose to "turn away"(repent) from known sin, and "turn toward" God, and God will forgive and give freely the gift of eternal life.
God will not force one to receive forgiveness and salvation.
It's a heart issue. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart. God knows the heart and them that believe.
Pure logic.
@secondson saidOne "turns" away from a lifestyle of habitual known sin, and turns toward God.
Repentance. To change the mind. One "turns" away from a lifestyle of habitual known sin, and turns toward God.
Does this involve obligatory steps and actions?
@secondson saidPoetic language aside, when you talk about "heart", you are talking about thoughts and beliefs.
It's a heart issue. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart. God knows the heart and them that believe.
@secondson saidHardly logical.
Repentance. To change the mind. One "turns" away from a lifestyle of habitual known sin, and turns toward God.
Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Salvation, forgiveness, eternal life are not arbitrarily bestowed. One must choose to "turn away"(repent) from known sin, ...[text shortened]... of the matter is the matter of the heart. God knows the heart and them that believe.
Pure logic.
How does one choose to believe in something one does not currently believe in?
Furthermore your logic goes against scripture in Romans 3:10-17 where Paul is quoting the OT and which informs readers that;
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
@secondson saidSo this is what Christians must do if they want "eternal life"?
One must choose to "turn away"(repent) from known sin, and "turn toward" God, and God will forgive and give freely the gift of eternal life.
@mchill saidIf that is what your pastor is telling you then I suggest you leave that church.
Non Christians have all kinds of problems with this. I hear them say "how can he call himself a Christian and do______!" Folks, just because one accepts Christ as their savior, this does not mean they've immediately been given a backstage pass to a life of sin free perfection. If GOD had wanted his followers to be perfect little sin free robots, who mindlessly walked a perfect ...[text shortened]... ur Lord.
It needs to be said over and over again:
Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.
Christians are indeed forgiven after professions of faith in Christ and after baptism. Thereafter a new life in Christ is supposed to start. Of course there would be failure and then God forgives, and this process goes on and on. If this continued sinning does not stop then there is a point where God says ENOUGH !!
Let me know if you want the references. If not then continue on with your delusion that you can continue on with a life of sin indefinitely.