1. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    20 Apr '15 12:01
    The BEST stories of People who have seen HEAVEN and HELL.

    Hear the awesome stories of 16 people, who were eyewitnesses of the SUPERNATURAL, and saw Life after Death, Jesus, Angels, Heaven and Hell.

    YouTube
  2. Cape Town
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    20 Apr '15 12:11
    The title clearly says 'after death'. So are these people ghosts?
  3. Joined
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    20 Apr '15 12:15
    I'm sure I did a thread recently on why this kind of stuff isn't convincing or viable evidence...

    Oh yes... So I did...


    Why eyewitness testimony isn't reliable or sufficient for extraordinary claims.
    Or why I wont [and we shouldn't] accept your 'personal experience' as evidence

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?subject=Why_eyewitness_testimony_isn%27t_reliable_....&threadid=162877

    also...

    http://www.technologyreview.com/view/520156/memory-is-inherently-fallible-and-thats-a-good-thing/

    http://www.brainpickings.org/2013/02/04/oliver-sacks-on-memory-and-plagiarism/

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2011/10/28/the-fallibility-of-human-memory/

    http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

    http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=fallibility+of+human+memory&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=uNLcVK-PJIqAUZ-1g4gG&ved=0CCAQgQMwAA

    Aron Ra [back in the day] did a series of youtube videos called
    "Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism" in which he debunked
    a whole set of creationist [or just theistic] beliefs, arguments,
    or claims.

    His 4th, linked here:

    YouTube

    Deals with faith, and how you cannot know something you cannot show.

    The transcript is here:

    http://darwinwasright.homestead.com/4thFFoC.html


    Expanding upon the point made in my OP, and the discussions that followed
    [at least the ones on topic ] I have just come across a great example and
    explanation of why it is that you cannot just trust that an experience you
    have is necessarily real.

    The relevant part starts 15:15 into this recording of The Atheist Experience TV show.
    It's about 8 minutes long, and well worth watching.

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/58869531/theater

    The topic is about Sleep Paralysis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
    which is a condition in which you partially wake and are unable to move and
    in which you may have hallucinations, sometimes extremely vivid and occasionally
    terrifying. They are a likely explanation for people claiming to have been abducted
    by aliens [these hallucinations can have a sexual element] or, in latter centuries by
    angels or demons.

    For those claiming personal experiences as evidence or proof of god, and who claim
    that they know that god exists because of a personal experience. I ask how it is that
    you can possibly know that the experience was real given that we know how our brains
    can deceive us?


    Oklahoma Freethought Convention 2011 (speech 4 of 5) - AronRa
    YouTube

    The whole speech is pretty good, but the relevant bit starts here: ~16:38 mins in.

    YouTube&feature=player_detailpage#t=998

    And the discussion of hallucination starts 33:00 minutes in.

    He's a good speaker, so it's worth the time.


    Science absolutely says that eyewitnesses are unreliable.
    Not by any means absolutely unreliable, but it's much less reliable than most
    people believe and it's far to unreliable to be evidence for extraordinary claims of
    the supernatural or gods.

    The Dangerous Unreliability of Eyewitnesses
    YouTube

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-eyewitnesses-in-the-z/

    http://people.howstuffworks.com/eyewitnesses-unreliable.htm

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr06/eyewitness.aspx

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

    http://www.simplypsychology.org/eyewitness-testimony.html

    http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

    http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php

    http://theweek.com/articles/480511/eyewitness-testimony-unreliable-trust

    http://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/committees/trialevidence/articles/winterspring2012-0512-eyewitness-testimony-unreliable.html

    http://www.law.yale.edu/news/2727.htm

    http://atheism.about.com/od/parapsychology/a/eyewitness.htm
  4. Cape Town
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    20 Apr '15 12:22
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    I'm sure I did a thread recently on why this kind of stuff isn't convincing or viable evidence...
    No need for all those references. RJ himself - and all other posters on this forum, already accept that testimony of this nature is unreliable.
    There was a thread a while back in which sonship at first suggested that he found such testimony reliable, but the moment I mentioned the existence of equivalent testimony that gave a different result, he backed down very quickly.
    Similarly, if I find a YouTube video of 16 Muslims who have seen Allah, RJ will not accept it as valid evidence.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    20 Apr '15 12:26
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    I'm sure I did a thread recently on why this kind of stuff isn't convincing or viable evidence...

    Oh yes... So I did...


    [b]Why eyewitness testimony isn't reliable or sufficient for extraordinary claims.

    Or why I wont [and we shouldn't] accept your 'personal experience' as evidence

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?sub ...[text shortened]... aw.yale.edu/news/2727.htm

    http://atheism.about.com/od/parapsychology/a/eyewitness.htm[/quote][/b]
    Speculations, not science. 😏
  6. Joined
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    20 Apr '15 12:26
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No need for all those references. RJ himself - and all other posters on this forum, already accept that testimony of this nature is unreliable.
    There was a thread a while back in which sonship at first suggested that he found such testimony reliable, but the moment I mentioned the existence of equivalent testimony that gave a different result, he backed ...[text shortened]... find a YouTube video of 16 Muslims who have seen Allah, RJ will not accept it as valid evidence.
    Suzianne however has STILL not accepted the scientific consensus on this
    topic, or admitted that personal experiences are not god or valid evidence for
    the supernatural...

    Or at least that HER personal experiences and memories are not valid evidence.

    So not everyone agrees.


    And on that topic... Suzianne, you still have not answered this question.

    Do you value your self and external image as someone who accepts and values science [enough] to
    put your religious beliefs to one side for a moment and evaluate the science here?

    Are you like RJHinds, or are you prepared to update and correct your beliefs when you encounter
    new evidence?
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Apr '15 12:351 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No need for all those references. RJ himself - and all other posters on this forum, already accept that testimony of this nature is unreliable.
    There was a thread a while back in which sonship at first suggested that he found such testimony reliable, but the moment I mentioned the existence of equivalent testimony that gave a different result, he backed ...[text shortened]... find a YouTube video of 16 Muslims who have seen Allah, RJ will not accept it as valid evidence.
    Muslims refer to their god as Allah. Their god is actually Satan, the great deceiver, who transforms himself into an angel of light.
    No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

    (2 Corinthians 11:14-15 NASB)
  8. Joined
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    20 Apr '15 12:41
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Muslims refer to their god as Allah. Their god is actually Satan, the great deceiver, who transforms himself into an angel of light.
    No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

    (2 Corinthians 11:14-15 NASB)
    Just because it says something in the bible, that does not mean that it is true.

    The bible is not evidence for the truth of the claims in the bible.

    So given that, and given that you have just made an assertion of fact...

    Prove it.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Apr '15 12:591 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Just because it says something in the bible, that does not mean that it is true.

    The bible is not evidence for the truth of the claims in the bible.

    So given that, and given that you have just made an assertion of fact...

    Prove it.
    For we walk by faith, not by sight

    (2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV)

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    (Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV)

    Don't you also believe by faith that things are made of thing which we do not see?
  10. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    20 Apr '15 13:02
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    For we walk by faith, not by sight

    (2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV)

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    (Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV)
    More and more circular arguments. If you don't understand circular argument, try googling it.
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Apr '15 13:05
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    More and more circular arguments. If you don't understand circular argument, try googling it.
    Do you believe by faith that things are made of thing which we do not see?
  12. Joined
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    20 Apr '15 13:08
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Don't you also believe by faith that things are made of thing which we do not see?
    No!

    Of course I don't.

    Have you not read ANYTHING I have written here over the years?

    I do not believe ANYTHING on or by faith.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Apr '15 13:19
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    No!

    Of course I don't.

    Have you not read ANYTHING I have written here over the years?

    I do not believe ANYTHING on or by faith.
    You don't even believe in electrons, protons, and neutrons or gravity?
  14. Cape Town
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    20 Apr '15 13:26
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Or at least that HER personal experiences and memories are not valid evidence.
    That is different. I think you will find that even she will not accept personal experiences as related by other people- if the experiences in question do not match her beliefs.
  15. Joined
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    20 Apr '15 13:45
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    You don't even believe in electrons, protons, and neutrons or gravity?
    I said I do not believe anything based on faith.

    I did not say that I had no beliefs, or knowledge, about the world.

    Electrons, Protons, Neutrons, and Gravity all have evidence for their
    existence.

    No FAITH is required to believe that they exist, or know their properties
    to the extent that their properties are known.
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