1. Melbourne, Australia
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    31 Jul '11 03:303 edits
    This is a part of an interview by Andrew Cohen of Kaisa Puhakka, transpersonal psychologist I found in my travels. I post to share the well expressed thoughts of Puhakka on the maps allegory.
    Note that "... from your perpective of enlightened mind" refers to a
    theoretical context (unnecessary, imo) raised by Cohen, in putting the question. The full context is found here;
    http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j17/puhakka.asp?page=2


    "AC: So, what would you say to transpersonal psychologists? What would you tell them from your perspective of enlightened mind?

    KP: What I would tell them is that in making maps, as they do—they characterize their theories as maps—if you do it like a child who is building sand castles, then there's nothing wrong with it. The child in his or her most creative mode is excited when the waves come in and wipe out the castle; the child screams with joy as the whole thing crumbles. Then they get the chance to build another one. If we have the appreciation that these maps are something that we have fun doing and that stimulates our minds, but that there are always an infinite number of other ways of drawing maps, then there's nothing wrong with the map-making activity, just as there's nothing wrong with the child playing in the sand.

    Now the trouble with the map making is when one takes one's map very seriously and says, "Well, this is the correct road map, and there's no other map that is as good as this one." That's when you are implicitly making the claim that you actually know the territory, that you have walked it, and that there's some kind of correspondence between the territory and the map. As soon as the map making ceases to be fun and play, as soon as we take the maps too seriously, I think it actually becomes a hindrance to walking the terrain. If you are reading a map when you're walking, you're missing everything along the way. As Sasaki Roshi says, "You're running around thinking that there's some kind of a spiritual path or great way laid out in front of you like a road. You are fools. There is no road in front of you. The great way comes into being as you walk." There is no road that is ready-made, let alone a map that will describe the road. The road itself comes into being in the walking."

    [edits typographical]
  2. Standard memberpyxelated
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    31 Jul '11 04:092 edits
    Originally posted by Taoman
    This is a part of an interview by Alan Cohen of Kaisa Puhakka, transpersonal psychologist. I post to share the well expressed thoughts of Puhakka on the maps

    ... snip ...

    There is no road that is ready-made, let alone a map that will describe the road. The road itself comes into being in the walking."
    There's a lot that is profound in here when applied to our less-than-perfect world.

    On the other hand... there is God.

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."

    The saying "the map is not the territory" is a very wise one when applied to finite creatures. But I think it may help give a little insight into the nature of the Trinity when applied to God--the only "place," I submit, where the map IS the territory. The Father is the territory (perfect and infinite being itself); the Son is the map (perfect and infinite being's perfect and infinite self-knowledge); and the Spirit is the one-to-one correspondence of every point on the map to a point on the territory (perfect and infinite being's perfect and infinite self-love). In one way they are three, yet in another they are one. There is only one being... but He is being, and knowing, and loving, infinitely and perfectly, all at once.

    Clearly this is just an analogy... but it's my take on "mapping enlightenment."

    Now go by the true, living way, the Map. (There are many routes in Him, but He is the only Way šŸ™‚ )

    And in the name of the Territory, and the Map, and the One-to-One Correspondence, goodnight.
  3. Standard memberblack beetle
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    31 Jul '11 04:10
    Originally posted by Taoman
    This is a part of an interview by Andrew Cohen of Kaisa Puhakka, transpersonal psychologist I found in my travels. I post to share the well expressed thoughts of Puhakka on the maps allegory.
    Note that "... from your perpective of enlightened mind" refers to a
    theoretical context (unnecessary, imo) raised by Cohen, in putting the question. The full contex ...[text shortened]... d. The road itself comes into being in the walking."

    [edits typographical]
    Go on Taoman, go on, go on, go on, spread the ego-killing poison
    on your ownšŸ˜µ
  4. Melbourne, Australia
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    31 Jul '11 06:49
    ABELOriginally posted by black beetle
    Go on Taoman, go on, go on, go on, spread the ego-killing poison
    on your ownšŸ˜µ
    *sigh*

    The trouble with trying to kill the ego you can never bloody find it! It arises to do the killing and is released as you start looking to kill it, that very moment.

    Taoman is just a misthought label, so presumptious.
    He and you and all are the Way, right now.
    Now,for heaven's sake, don't start looking for that Way.
    It will do "you" no good at all.
    Quick! look behind you - ah no, you missed it,
    - or did you?

    I want to go play with my maps in the sand.

    Splash,splash, all gone. Wheeeee!

    Namaste.
  5. Melbourne, Australia
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    31 Jul '11 06:571 edit
    Originally posted by pyxelated
    There's a lot that is profound in here when applied to our less-than-perfect world.

    On the other hand... there is God.

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."

    The saying "the map is not the territory" is a very wise one when applied to finite creatures. But I think it may help give a little insight into he name of the Territory, and the Map, and the One-to-One Correspondence, goodnight.
    Your infinite certitude is part of your map, I guess.

    I tend to like maps that leave a bit of space for mystery. Nor do I like my gods bottled.

    Enjoy your journey.

    Shalom.
  6. Standard memberblack beetle
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    31 Jul '11 07:17
    Originally posted by Taoman
    *sigh*

    The trouble with trying to kill the ego you can never bloody find it! It arises to do the killing and is released as you start looking to kill it, that very moment.

    Taoman is just a misthought label, so presumptious.
    He and you and all are the Way, right now.
    Now,for heaven's sake, don't start looking for that Way.
    It will do "you" no good a ...[text shortened]... I want to go play with my maps in the sand.

    Splash,splash, all gone. Wheeeee!

    Namaste.
    When mind is moving low time has come for investigation, energy and joy; and when mind is flying low and hard time has come for tranquility, concentration and equanimity; in the middle, mindfulness. The projections, empty.

    But you lazy are playing nonstop by the Seaside, unable to stand still; or are you going somewhere and thus you have no time to spread it?
    šŸ˜µ
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 Jul '11 07:191 edit
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Your infinite certitude is part of your map, I guess.

    I tend to like maps that leave a bit of space for mystery. Nor do I like my gods bottled.

    Enjoy your journey.

    Shalom.
    I think you will find more that a little mystery with Jesus (Yahshua).
    How did He rise from the grave? How did He ascend into heaven?
    How did He make the image on the Shroud of Turin?
    How is He the way, the truth, and the life?
  8. Standard memberDasa
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    31 Jul '11 07:43
    Originally posted by Taoman
    This is a part of an interview by Andrew Cohen of Kaisa Puhakka, transpersonal psychologist I found in my travels. I post to share the well expressed thoughts of Puhakka on the maps allegory.
    Note that "... from your perpective of enlightened mind" refers to a
    theoretical context (unnecessary, imo) raised by Cohen, in putting the question. The full contex ...[text shortened]... d. The road itself comes into being in the walking."

    [edits typographical]
    The great way comes into being as you walk (end quote) and when it does, it becomes a gift for others who are seeking.

    You can give them this gift of the "great way" and when you do they are unappreciative of you directing them..............and they might even pass it on to another and then another.
  9. Standard memberDasa
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    31 Jul '11 07:45
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I think you will find more that a little mystery with Jesus (Yahshua).
    How did He rise from the grave? How did He ascend into heaven?
    How did He make the image on the Shroud of Turin?
    How is He the way, the truth, and the life?
    These are all fabrications by the Bible compilers to entice the curious.

    All dead bodies rot and turn to dust.

    And all souls take birth again and again.
  10. Standard memberDasa
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    31 Jul '11 07:49
    Originally posted by Taoman
    *sigh*

    The trouble with trying to kill the ego you can never bloody find it! It arises to do the killing and is released as you start looking to kill it, that very moment.

    Taoman is just a misthought label, so presumptious.
    He and you and all are the Way, right now.
    Now,for heaven's sake, don't start looking for that Way.
    It will do "you" no good a ...[text shortened]... I want to go play with my maps in the sand.

    Splash,splash, all gone. Wheeeee!

    Namaste.
    There is the false ego and that is what you talk of.............but there is true ego and of this you are uninformed.

    But praise the Gods , they tell much of this true ego but who has the ears to hear or the sense to want to hear?
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 Jul '11 07:55
    Originally posted by Dasa
    These are all fabrications by the Bible compilers to entice the curious.

    All dead bodies rot and turn to dust.

    And all souls take birth again and again.
    But how about the Shroud of Turin that the scientist of today are studying?
    The Bible compilers had nothing to do with that?
  12. Standard memberpyxelated
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    31 Jul '11 11:183 edits
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Your infinite certitude is part of your map, I guess.

    I tend to like maps that leave a bit of space for mystery. Nor do I like my gods bottled.

    Enjoy your journey.

    Shalom.
    You don't think there's mystery in a perfect and infinite God for a limited human mind?

    You haven't done much math, have you? šŸ™‚ (well, neither have I, really...)

    one, two, ...., aleph{ null, one, .... }--counting, for crying out loud, and we're already in waaaay over our heads!

    And my silly little analogy of the map and territory is just a way for me to try to wrap my mind around something that is so far beyond my comprehension that if I were able to explore it eternally, I'd still never come anywhere near to exhausting it.

    I know you've read the Tao Te Ching. What does Lao Tzu say about the Way? (And that was before He came to earth Himself.)

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming the Old Boy is a Christian... but from what he saw, he might have been, if he'd been given the chance. (He may be now, for all I know.)

    --pyx
  13. Standard memberDasa
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    31 Jul '11 11:34
    SPELLING MISTAKE

    It is meant to say appreciative...............not unappreciative.
  14. Standard memberDasa
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    31 Jul '11 11:36
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    But how about the Shroud of Turin that the scientist of today are studying?
    The Bible compilers had nothing to do with that?
    Yes and how about the Piltdown Man and Lucy.
  15. Melbourne, Australia
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    31 Jul '11 12:22
    Originally posted by black beetle
    When mind is moving low time has come for investigation, energy and joy; and when mind is flying low and hard time has come for tranquility, concentration and equanimity; in the middle, mindfulness. The projections, empty.

    But you lazy are playing nonstop by the Seaside, unable to stand still; or are you going somewhere and thus you have no time to spread it?
    šŸ˜µ
    Mistake not the reason for my sigh, friend
    It was the truth of what you said, that made me so.

    My "unable to stand still" is often my playing, and in my playing is my call to the curious at heart, my kin. Others will dismiss it. (Mind you, I do not ever want to be without questions, discovery - nor would "God" want it either, methinks)

    Then there is also the play of serious logical earnestness. Some will approach, some will turn away. And in either way the spontaneity of the never graspable now, the View comes as it will to those who finally see, and not just because of "me" or "you" - or our maps.

    Oh. here comes somebody so sad, walking along the beach....just now.
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